GOF
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Posts posted by GOF
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Koski,
I was wondering that myself. But, a review of the Rule Book and the new addendum never mentions malf, expect under the "Reloading" appendix where it says you are not required to retain/stow any ammunition feeding device that may have contributed to a malf. But, it doesn't define a malf. Nor does it say anything about how to deal with one in the open where the COF says targets must be shot on the move. I would think that there is a difference between reloading when you run outa bullets, and clearing a gun malfunction during a COF, and especially in an open/shoot on the move requirement. But, I can't find one in the Rule Book. I was hoping someone had a firm ruling on it. I note that D Thomas says he got a PE for clearing a malf in the open instead of moving to cover to clear it, which seems to be a rather extreme interpretation by the SO. He notes it was a misfire, so I don't know if he just racked the slide and continued on, or dumped the mag and re-charged. But, that call is puzzling.
GOF
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A typical scenario in IDPA has the shooter starting in the open... with targets in front of him/her... and those targets must, under COF description, be shot on the move as the shooter moves to a designated cover position where other targets will be engaged. Question... the new rules addendum states that if any cover exists on the COF, that is the place a shooter must reload. How would you handle a situation where a shooter is moving, engaging targets, and suffers a gun malfunction while doing so? Can the shooter clear the malfunction while in the open, under current IDPA rules for malf clearing. If it is a dead primer in a revo, can the shooter, while in the open, dump that cylinder, reload with a speed loader, get back on the move and shoot the specified targets? Or, if a major magazine/feed malf with a semi-auto, can they dump the malfuctioning ammo feeding device, slap in a new one, and shoot the remaining targets on the move? Or, do they have to move to cover to reload, in which case they may have a problem engaging the specified targets "on the move". I would think that existing rules for clearing a malf would allow the shooter do clear/reload in the open and finish the "on the move" targets as they move to cover. Is there another interpretation? There are a bunch of experienced SO/MDs here, so I thought I would ask for a clarification.
GOF
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Revolvers take work and dedication. But, when you put it all together the coolest thing is looking at the match scores and seeing how many bottom-feeders you beat. And then, them looking at you and realizing they got whupped by a wheelgunner. Some days are just lovely!
GOF
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G-Man,
Sorry you hate Berry's bullets. I've never used them, so I have no comment. As far as setting the seating dies to the same length as a proven factory load in the same bullet weight, it has worked for me for the 40+ years I have been reloading simple practice/plinking loads, and also worked well for the loads I have used in sanctioned IDPA and USPSA matches. Of course, YMMV. As for the velocity of lead bullets in 9mm, every loading manual limits them to less than 1000 fps in order to prevent leading. That's due to the fact that Hornady and Speer sell swaged lead bullets, and they will lead above 1000 fps. Really hardcast bullets can be driven a bit faster, but then they don't sell those bullets.
GOF
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+1. If factory loads are dropping in and out of the barrel and your reloads aren't, it's not a powder issue. It's a crimp or OAL issue. As far as OAL goes, a simple step is to ignore calipers and just take a factory round that you know runs reliably in your gun... set your seating die to that load's OAL... use a smooth, but not overly heavy taper crimp... and go from there.
GOF
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If you can get the gunsmith who inspected and slugged your bore, to sign a letter as to what he found, and send that to EAA, you might be able to get a new barrel from them. It may not be any better than the first, but at least it shouldn't cost you much more than postage and a few phone calls. If that doesn't work, then a quality aftermarket barrel might be indicated, but I'd try the least expensive route first. A company should stand behind their product. If EAA won't, please let us know.
GOF
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Chronographing each individual chamber in the cylinder can also be eye opening. I have one gun that shows a pretty consistent 50 fps variation between the slowest and fastest chambers with handloads or factory. I have also seen my handloads not make 125 out of another shooter's gun. Some guns are faster/slower than others, so you do need to chrono a load from your own gun. It also helps to note which are your fastest chambers, and load those at match chrono time. The new rules addendum would seem to allow the competitor to load and fire three rounds over the chrono himself.
GOF
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A bit more confusing language in the Rules. The new addendum... Change of language to CoF 9. Page 12.. partial quote...fourth sentence down, midway through sentence... " Competitors may NOT cross any opening (doorways, windows, open speces, etc.) without engaging targets". I have always understood the existing Rules to require that in a doorway, window, or other open space, that a competitor must use that space as cover and pie the targets from cover, and if you cross it with unengaged targets visible you get a cover PE. What does this new Rule mean? Do you have to shoot them as you cross the opening, or does normal pieing the targets and engaging all visible targets from the cover of the indow or doorway, and then crossing it to get to the next shooting position work? What is "crossing" a window, for example. Running straight over it and exposed? Ducking under it and remaining under cover. Can anyone explain this one?
GOF
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Sirveyr,
I understand. The week after the 2008 Nationals we had two shooters from the Italian team (Marco & Luca) show up at one little out of the way Florida club for a IDPA match, which they found on the Internet on their way to shoot USPSA to the south of us. It was a vaction for them, and a one night stop over. Marco spoke English pretty well and did basic interpreter duties, Luca didn't speak any English. I was the SO on their squad. They were really good shooters (Luca ESP MA and Marco, I think was SSP EX), and really great people! I could talk to Marco, but my Italian was too rusty to communicate verbally with Luca.... it didn't matter. When he got on the line we were two shooters talking to each other via hand signals, questioning glances, and head nods. We both knew the Rule Book, and what was expected of each. We had a good, and very safe time. That's the way IDPA should be.
GOF
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Sirveyr
Can't argue with "what is". It exists. Just noting "what should be". After three Nationals and a dozen State/Regionals. I've seen stuff that ranged from "pushing the rules"... to "ignoring the Rules".... and these were sanctioned matches that should have had COFs approved by HQ... or at the very least, the AC. My point is this... if IDPA is truly an International organization, then I should be able to attend a match in Italy, South Africa, Jamacia, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, California, etc.... and be called on a COF the same way at each locale. To have to ask the "local" SO, "How do ya'll do it here", is not in keeping with the scope and reach of IDPA, and is a reflection on how ambiguously the Rule Book is written. A Rule Book should be clearly written as to be enforced. It should not be so ambiguous as to be left up to the "local" SO/MD to have to interpret it. YMMV.
GOF
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Duane,
I would be happy to reload behind any cover I'm already behind. Can you please tell me if I am behind cover? And, what is the Rule Book definition of "Cover".
Sirvyr, If IDPA is an International organization (as the name implies) with a Rule Book and Rules, why should I have to ask a "local" SO at a sanctioned match in "wherever" how their version of the IDPA Rules goes? Shouldn't the Rules be the same everywhere? Why should we have to learn the "local" rules,... "one bay at a time"... for an International organization with a Rule Book that is supposed to apply everywhere?
I don't really think I'm "over thinking" this. I actually think I am logically-thinking this. And, I am a five year SO, who was asked to become a SO by one MD, and trained as a SO by the AC.
GOF
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Steve J,
How does that define what "cover" actually is? If I am in a wall situation, and 15 feet behind the wall, yet I cannot see any unengaged targets (and given that, they can't see me) and I am moving behind that wall to a position where I can see the unengaged targets... does that mean I am behind cover and can reload as I move behind that wall to where I can see, and engage, the unengaged targets? Can I reload as I move behind that wall? Or, do I have to reach a specific point on that wall/cover before I reload? The Rule book clearly defines how a shooter must use cover. Yet, it never defines what "cover" actually is. If you can't provide a specific definition of "cover", how can you tell if a ahooter is using "cover" properly? How about IDPA HQ come up with a definition of cover. There is not one positive definition on what actually constitutes cover in the Rule Book. Only how to "use" cover... with said cover being undefined, and up to the individual interpretation of any and all SOs. There lies the problem - interpretation of an undefined rule.
GOF
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I push 158 LRN Speer/Hornady swaged bullets with 5.2 231... velocity 840 average. No significant leading with that load. Swaged bullets are normally softer in Brinnel harndness than cast, so you shouldn't have any leading problems at 125 PF velocities with any reasonable quality cast lead bullet. One way to speed barrel clean up is to run 12 jacketed slugs through the gun after you have fired lead. The jacketed slugs seem to strip a lot of lead out of the barrel, and cleaning is easier (although at 840-900 fps there isn't much leading).
The pressure in CUP for 5.2 231/HP-38 is slightly above max SAMMI pressure levels for .38 Spl+P... maybe 22,000 cup or so ... with a 20,000 CUP standard for .38 Spl+P. The max pressure for a .357 Mag load is around 40,000 CUP. Don't sweat .38 Spl loads in a .357 until you start trying to duplicate .357 full pressure loads (with slower burning powders) in a .38 case. With these charges of quick burning powders you are fine.
GOF
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Ahab,
Your definition of cover is the clearest... most concise... definitive... and least subject to interpretation...definition of what "cover" is that I have ever heard. I hope IDPA HQ is viewing. If that simple sentence is incorporated into the Rule Book, or addendum, it immediately resolves one of the biggest Rules controversies in IDPA today. A tip of the hat to you, Sir!
Until we have a precise Rule Book definition of what "cover" actually is... and not just how to use "cover" that is undefined in the Rule Book, we will still have subjective opinions, instead of International standards. I hate traveling to an out of state sanctioned match and having to ask "How do ya'll rule cover here?". If IDPA wants to be an International organization, lets have concrete Rules that are not subject to individual interpretation. Ahab's definition of what "cover" actually is is a good one. Until you define precisely what "cover" is, you can't determine... without a subjective opinion... if a shooter is using "cover" correctly.
GOF
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Another thread prompted some/my research into just what consitutes "cover" under IDPA Rules. After a through review of the current Rule Book, and the new addendum, I can find lots of references to when and how "cover" must be used in a COF. But, I can't find a single definition of cover. What constitutes "cover"?
GOF
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HP-38/Win 231 is a powder that will make quality target loads for 9mm & 45 ACP. Clays is also very good. As for loading your own self defense loads... as advised in a previous post... it is not a good idea. Problems can arise in court. Massad Ayoob is a certified courtroom expert in this area and it might be worth your time to Google him, and read his writings on the subject. I, personally, would never carry handloads for SD... I would use any load that is approved for use by a respected LE agency, especially one in your area. In that case, if an overzealous prosecutor wants to bring up the subject of the loads you used, he has to, basically tar & feather local LE. There are a lot of issues that can arise in a SD shooting, but if you are using the same loads as a local LE agency is, your ammo won't be among those issues. Check Mas Ayoob on this.... he has a lot of actual in court experience on this issue.
GOF
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It takes 5.2 grains of 231 (or HP-38... same powder) to reliably make 125 PF in any of my four inch revolvers. This load is above max for .38 Spl, but well below .357 Mag pressures, and perfectly safe in .38 brass in a .357 chambered gun.
GOF
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The Rule Book is so ambiguous, and sometimes contradictory, that there may not be a correct answer to this basic question. I would submit the following thought process. What is a Threat Target? It is one that needs to be shot with the minimum number of rounds specified by the COF, and which you cannot expose more than 50% of your torso or any of your lower body to while shooting it from cover. If it's in the open, with no cover for the shooter to use, you just shoot 'em as you can, and if the COF says "On The Move" then you better be moving. When does a threat target cease to be an "active threat target" that you can then expose yourself to as you move through the various firing positions mandated by the COF? The answer is "after you shot/engaged it". After that point it is a non-factor for cover calls. If this was not the case, then there would be no way for a shooter to run one of the most standard IDPA courses there is... i.e... engage one target array from a firing position and then move to another to engage a second target array... while exposing yourself to the ones you just shot/engaged (they're done and out of the picture until they're scored, and penalties will be assessed then), without drawing a PE.
What is cover? It is an object that shields you from unengaged targets. If you can't see them, they can't see you, and cover exists. Where do you have to reload? Behind cover. If you are "covered" from active threat targets (not the ones already engaged... they're out of the equation) can you consider that to be "behind cover" and reload then... when an intervening object prevents you from seeing them and them from seeing you... is that "cover"? Yes. Can you move behind that cover, staying behind cover, while you reload? Yes. I'm not sure what the problem with this scenario is.
But, there is another Rule that comes into play. Can you leave a firing position with an empty gun and advance to another firing position? No, you can't. If the shooter has engaged T-1 & T-2 in the open, and has run dry... he/she is at a "firing position". If the shooter is behind cover from T-3 & T-4.... what the heck is he supposed to do? "Leave" that firing position with an empty gun to run to another firing position? Or, just reload behind the cover he's already behind.
Which Rule do you violate? Leaving a firing position with an empty gun to advance to another? Or, reloading behind some SO's incorrect definition of cover? What is cover? Does anyone have an iron clad... IDPA HQ approved... definition as to what constitutes cover and how close one has to be to it?
GOF
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And what exactly does "reading the COF description for yourself" accomplish if you know the Rule Book and the SO doesn't...and he decides to throw a PE on you, despite what the Rules says? At what point does reading the COF do you any more good than asking the SO how he is going to call things? Which... if the SO knew the Rule Book... and you knew the Rule Book... shouldn't be a question you have to ask.
GOF
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+1 to Strick on that. I've shot in PA, SC, NC, GA, AR and FL... in most cases the Rules have been applied consistently. There were times when they were left up to the MD, and not applied in a way that this five year SO could understand, and sometimes in a direct contridiction with the current Rule Book. Given the travel expenses involved, I would love to see some consistency. I hear the same complaint from upper level shooters who travel. If you spend the time and money to travel to a sanctioned match, and know the Rule Book, you should expect it to be enforced as written. You shouldn't have to ask " How do ya'll do it here?"
GOF
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Lugnut's point about slicing the piece from a barricade (Stage 3 of the Classifier comes immediately to mind)is an excellent one. The Rule Book indicates that if a shooter can shoot two or more targets without shifting his position on the barricade then he/she is not using cover proeprly and gets a PE. The shooter must shift their position, however slightly, for each target. If you shoot T-1 (outside target) and then shift position to shoot T-2 (inside middle target) you are exposing yourself to the already engaged T-1. Should that be a PE? If it is, how does anyone run the Classifier without getting a PE on Strings 1, 2 and 3? If you cannot expose yourself to a target that has been engaged, then that's the only one you can shoot without drawing a PE.
GOF
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From this SOs perspective, cover is one of the most subjective... interrpreted...ill-defined... and maybe misinterrpreted... rules calls in IDPA. One would logically assume that if you cannot view any unengaged targets while you are behind "cover" then they can't see you, so cover exists. If you can view an unengaged target and 50% or your torso is covered by "cover", and your lower body is 100% behind cover, then you are in total compliance with the Rule Book as far as cover to shoot goes, as I read it. If you have shot to slide lock (or cylinder empty with a revolver) and did not receive a COVER call or COVER PE while you were shooting, then the Rule Book says you can reload from that exact same position (don't move your feet or body) and not be called for cover while reloading because you were properly using cover while shooting (page 43/44 Rule Book). At least, that's what the Rule Book says. It would be nice if more SOs actually read the Rule Book. It would be nicer still if IDPA actually came out with some solid rules that clarified cover. Then, of course, you'd have to get the rookie SOs to actually read the Rule Book... so we are back to Square 1. I got a PE for cover reloading at a State Championship match when shooting through a window and drilling the two targets presented with the COF required number of hits, and then reloading from the same shooting position... no foot or body movement... because ... in the words of the Marksman Class SO... "I was standing right in the window where I just shot from". I said WTF?. He said 3 seconds. Both targets were down 0. The Marksman Class SO was happy, he got to call a PE on a Expert... happier still since he didn't have to spend any of his precious time actually reading the Rule Book. That PE still pisses me off (although it wouldn't have changed my place in the standings). I should have disputed the call with the MD and AC (who was there and who was the one who certified me as a SO), but it was the first stage in a long match and I didn't want to start the day with a fight. But, it was still a bogus call by a SO who had no business being a SO.
GOF
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Some years back I did some serious experimentation in .38 Spl with roll and taper crimp. The same load (only a 120 pf) was used for both. The taper crimped cases lasted twice as long before the neck split, but averaged 30-40 fps less than the identical bullet/powder combo in a roll crimp. If you are only having to make 115-120 PF, the taper crimp could work, but you'll need more powder than a roll crimp. If you have to make a 125 PF (a heavier load than most commercial .38+P loads) you may have a problem with bullet retention and "prairie dogging" that could tie up the gun. There are some plated bullets (HSN comes to mind) that do have a crimp groove. I have loaded those to 135 PF without problem. The plated bullets without a crimp groove are problimatical. I've never played with any of them because IMHO you need a solid roll crimp to get to 125 PF consistently, and not have bullets "prairie dogging" on you.
GOF
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Granderojo,
Much can be learned on this topic by reading Page 43&44 in the current Rule Book. If you don't have one I'm sure HQ will be happy to send you one.
GOF
25-2 TTT
in Revolver Forum
Posted
Mike,
Is there any 625 model/series that will shoot lead bullets, particularly Speer 230 swaged lead, well? By well I mean 3 or so inch groups at 25 yards with a decent load. By decent load, I mean the same load that will do 3 or so 25 yard inches in a 1911 or M&P .45. I would like to shoot major revo, but would prefer to do it with lesser cost lead bullets. I have have played with a few different 625s owned by friends and have not been impressed with their lead bullet performance.
GOF