GOF
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Posts posted by GOF
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Regarding magazine capacity for the Classifier -- the Rule Book says one thing -- those of us who have run many Classifiers sometimes forget what the Rule Book says and just run things in the most expeditous manner possible.
Koski's magazine load out formula works very well and saves a lot of time.
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ChrisC... IDPA in Central & NE FL will only draw a half dozen or so revo shooters (SSR & ESR combined) for a 95 shooter club match. I do see many of those same names on website posted ICORE match scores. There is a pretty good crossover, just from a small pool of revo shooters.
Jaxshooter - Yes, Volusia (shot there last month, won Classic Division, and plan on Nov) and Orlando. Have not gotten to Orlando yet, but I hear it's a good match, and the CFRPC has very good range facilities... I have shot a lot of IDPA there.
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Question... if you get a bump at a sanctioned match... say from SS to EX.. and you then shoot the required annual Classifier and fail to shoot a EX score... are you still EX? And, does your match bump EX classification exist in the data base? Or, if your card wasn't signed after the match bump to elevate you to EX... does your SS Classifier take precedence?
What are you?... and how do you prove what you are?
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There are two ICORE clubs within a 2.25 hour drive of me in NE FL. Neither pulls more than 25-30 shooters per club match (often in the 20 shooter range)... and these are the two biggest ICORE clubs in Central FL, where action pistol shooting is BIG (IDPA draws 95-100 per club match, and USPSA isn't far behind)
The matches are fun, well-run, and with very good range facilities. The 'match' facilities (motel, restaurants, travel distance, etc) are convenient and plentiful.
But, if local clubs can't generate more than 25-30 shooters for the biggest club matches in FL... I have to wonder what the level of interest would be for a Major match. You'd have to have a bunch of folks drive a long way, or fly into Orlando.
I would love to see a ICORE Major in my neck of the woods. I just started shooting ICORE and love it. But, you have to wonder if the match would fill. But, if anyone is interested in holding one in FL (Universal in Frostproof is there, and has a lot of Major match experience) I would suggest it be OCT/NOV & and early Dec. A much less chance of rain.
Don't even think about July, Aug, Sept!
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I tried the link.I was hoping for the porn sight. All I got was Koski.
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Thanks again. I think I may stick a set on.
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Gentlemen can always agree to disagree, and remain gentlemen
I shoot far more IDPA than USPSA, so I don't have to worry about making PF from the gun I'm shooting. But, I can understand that being a concern in USPSA, and savvy shooters would choose their loads accordingly. -
Thank you! I had missed the adjustable model when looking at their website. Has anyone used the Dawson adjustable?
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I need someone who makes, and can install onto my M&P 4.5-inch slide, a quality set of adjustable sights with a FO front. Does anyone know of such a company?
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I'm afraid I can't agree with "hoovering just above PF is not a good thing"... "you'll find groups at 25 yards and beyond to be like 00 buckshot".
The 3.4-3.5 grain/147 WSF load - in my M&P 9mm and CZ 85B - groups in the 2.5-inch range at 25 yards, which is more than enough for USPSA/IDPA, and about as well as I can shoot, and about as well as any of the inexpensive factory loads I have tested in those guns. Of course, those are my guns. Other guns may vary.
One will have to test to see what works in their guns, but in my experience (IDPA SSP/MA & ESP/EX) a 147 grain bullet at 880 fps can produce more than adequate accuracy.
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I find TiteGroup to be loud, and produce more recoil than other powders. The 3.4 grain WSF load I mentioned in an earlier post produces 875-880 from my 4.25 M&P 9mm with just about any 147 grain jacketed bullet. I only need 851 fps to make 125 PF.
I've played with a number of 147 9mm loads and this is the softest I can find that makes PF.
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I have average size hands and use the Small backstrap insert on my M&P 45 and the Med insert on my M&P 9mm to get the same general grip "feel" from both. I love the M&P 45 for CDP... with a 3.5 pound Burwell trigger job and some decent sights it's been very effective for me in CDP/EX class.... and shifting back to the 9mm for SSP & ESP is an easy transition.
If you shoot the 9mm M&P already, and like the gun, sticking to the same platform makes sense. Experimenting with the backstrap inserts can improve your scores. I tried all three sizes and let the timer/target tell me which worked best for me.
To me there is a significant different in how a Glock and a M&P 'point' from the holster and transitioning between those two platforms isn't as easy for me as staying with one platform.
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3.4 to 3.5 grains of WSF. Very soft, very clean, and very little muzzle flash. You can get about 2,000 loads to a pound of WSF powder, so it's pretty economical as well.
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Jane's checklist is EXCELLENT! It will speed things up. One additional thing that I do is send the scorekeeper and ALL shooters... except for the on deck shooter... down to paste and score. I stay at the line with the on deck shooter and run him through the procedures one more time, and make sure that he has his mags & gear ready.
Having the set up for all three stages in the bay is smart, and doesn't take much in the way of props. If you put two stages side by side in the same bay (if there is room... and given the Classifier target set up there normally is), you can have Shooter 1 shoot on one target stage, and step back and let Shooter 2 shoot on the other target stage... then score and paste both.
With this system you can run two shooters through Stages 2 & 3 in about 5 minutes combined for both (assuming they have a 'mag loading buddy'), and be pasted & scored and ready for the next shooter. Stage 1 is the bottleneck.
The actual shooting portion of the Classifier takes little time. It's the pasting, and 'next shooter to the line' , and getting mags reloaded, that eats the day. I've been involved as a bay CSO at Classifiers where we have run 20+ shooters through the Classifier in less than five hours, using 2 set ups in one bay and alternating shooters before we paste. If you can open a second bay, you can cut the time quite a bit further.
The Classifier is a PITA... but organization makes it less so.
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I don't bother to inspect before I tumble. Dirt and powder fouling can hide imperfections and they're easier to see once the brass is cleaned. I do inspect at each loading stage... but the critical inspection is immediately after deprime/resize. That's when most cracks (in my experience) happen and are most evident.
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If the 158 lead bullets you're using are the proper fit for your barrel/throat dimensions, and you keep velocities under 900-950 fps you should have minimal leading. Try 4.6 grains of 231/HP38. That would be MAX for your .38 chamber gun, but no problem in the 686. You could go 5 - 5.3 grains in the .357 chambers without problems.
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If the ammo passes the chrono/PF it is legal ammo, even if the bullet weights are different. You can mix&match all you want if the ammo makes PF.
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If I was building a gun for IDPA I would follow Jim Watson's advice and not go out of the 'ordinary' until the Tiger Teams finish with the rules revision. You might wind up building a AWESOME gun that is now not legal. Best to wait.
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YES.. plain old Clays... not Universal Clays! Clays does great things with 158 grain lead bullets in a .38 revo (and 230 lead in .45 ACP). I shot a ICORE match a week or so ago... .38 Long Colt cases, 158 Speer swaged LRN, 3.3 grains Clays (all six chambers make 120 PF easily with that load) and it was so clean that I didn't brush chambers once during the 120+ round match. When shooting IDPA I use .38 Spl cases (Long Colt ain't legal there) and 3.6 Clays with the same bullet and same PF... still very clean.
Universal only seems to work in .38 at MAX loads. Below max it doesn't burn cleanly and leaves a lot of crud in the gun... not to mention filthy cases and very erratic velocitites.
I think Hodgdon created unneeded confusion with their different designations (Clays, Univeral and International) using the base name Clays.
For target loads in .38 and .45 ACP with lead bullets, you want plain Clays and don't mess with the other two. Except, if you have some Universal on hand... it does work in 9mm (real small case volume gets it a clean burn, but you still need to be in the upper load level ranges).
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3.4 grains WSF and any 147 grain bullet gets me 875 or so fps from a 4.25 inch M&P 9mm. With a 135 grain you'd need about 950 fps. I would think you could start somewhere around 3.6-.38 grains and work from there. You should have no trouble making a 130 pf load with your bullet/powder/gun combo.
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The answer is yes, if they all pass chrono. I shot two different loads at the IDPA World Championship and told them in advance. Both loads passed chrono and were deemed legal. If the practice is legal at the IDPA World Championship it should now be deemed legal in any IDPA match... unless the Tiger teams change that.
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If you get your card signed by the club MD & his number, or even the SO (and his #) that ran your through the IDPA Classifier, you're good to go. The IDPA website is a reference. It is not maintained as well as it should be and all results are not posted. Your signed Classification card is the Gospel. If you have it in your possession, you're Good To Go.
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If you intend to primarily shoot USPSA revo then a 625 moon clip gun is the most efficient choice -- Major caliber, and .45 ACP moonclips do produce faster reloads over speedloaders. Those .45 ACP charge holes are BIG, and rounds fall in. I'm not so certain the moonclip advantage extends to .38, with the smaller charge holes. You still have to get all six aligned, but once done the Comp III springs do drive the rounds home a bit more positively than pushing them in with a moon clip.
If you choose a 625 with a 4 inch barrel it will be legal for IDPA ESR division, and will work for ICORE (especially if you can develop some accurate 135-140 or so PF loads). Shooting Major loads in ICORE against a 120 PF does, IMHO, put you at a disadvantage.
If you wish to expend most of your time in IDPA & ICORE, I would go with the .38/speedloaders. IDPA requires a barrel no longer than 4.2 inches, and that will work for ICORE. I have a 4 inch GP-100 for IDPA SSR and a 6 inch GP-100 for ICORE. I can also run that 6 inch in USPSA... and a 200 grain slug at 850 fps will make Major for USPSA. From a 6 inch gun it's not a hard kicking load.
As others have noted, your gun choice might be more dependent upon which game you intend to spend most of your time & resources in.
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I would love to come out and shoot Action Pistol with you with my GP-100s, but living in NE FL I don't know where you are.
I readily agree that you can get a better trigger, in the 6.5 pound range, on a well-tuned S&W than the 8 pound trigger on the Ruger. I'm not certain that... if... both triggers are butter smooth and the shooter is used to that trigger rhytmn... that a 6.5 pound trigger is an automatic match winner over a 8 pound trigger. I do know that the 6.5 pound trigger... and the S&W revolver in general... is more maintenance intensive... and more prone to malf in a match... than the Ruger, and I've shot both in State Championship matches. Based upon what I learned there I chose the Ruger for IDPA National and World Championship matches.
In terms of "accuracy intensive' I'll take a Ruger over any post 1970 S&W when it comes to shooting tight groups with a 158 grain lead load. If the load of choice is jacketed, there seems to be no difference, but I'm happy with a 158 grain LRN at 120-125 PF (depending on the match I'm shooting) because it works and costs less.
Please don't take this as argumentative, because it is not intended to be. I shot S&W guns for a long time... in matches... and find the GP-100 a better bet for both cost and performance, than the current crop of S&W guns. Just MHO.
I shoot far more IDPA than USPSA, so I don't have to worry about making PF from the gun I'm shooting. But, I can understand that being a concern in USPSA, and savvy shooters would choose their loads accordingly.
Model 15 or model 19?
in Revolver Forum
Posted
The model 15 is a great choice for IDPA or ICORE. They require a Power factor of no more than standard pressure .38 Special. If you want to shoot USPSA (IIRC) you have to make a 125 PF for Minor Caliber... and most load to a 130 PF to assure a chrono passing.
That 125-130 PF is in the +P range and I do not know if the Model 15 will stand up to that for extensive shooting. The Model 19 will, and that would be my choice if you want to compete in USPSA in Minor.