ktm300

I see the point you're making. It could be argued either way: the loading process was complete and the AD was a separate action, or the AD occured *as* the gun was going into battery, which is part of the loading process. I lean toward the latter myself, if for no other reason than it encourages competitors to ensure their firearm is in safe operating order before bring it to a match. The shooter in question stated that he'd had a similar occurence with the gun the day prior to the match and he still chose to bring it out and shoot it. It can't be argued either way, If the gun went off it was by definition in battery. "slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire" So what rule are you going to use to DQ him? Yes I want people to show up with safe equipment but I also want to follow our rule book. I'd say the moment the slide goes forward, if you are still holding the gun like you are reloading and you haven't got a firing grip or started to line up the sights with your eyes, you are still in the process of reloading and an AD at that point is a DQ. The problem is that is not what the rule book says. It says loading is done when the gun goes into battery. <<IMHO, for loading to be complete>> I don't care about your opinion, I care about what the rule book says. If you want to add that to the definition of loading talk to NROI. As it is we have a definition and need to follow it. The rule book has lots of gray but that definition seems pretty black and white to me. Unless the gun fired out of battery, which from the description it didn't, you can't use the 10.4 section to DQ the guy. By the definition in the rule book he was done loading. If the gun goes off at the same time as it goes into battery it is still in battery when the gun goes off. You can wander into the 10.5 section and try and make something fit but I don't think you can use 10.4. No argument the gun is not safe and needs to be removed from the match.

I see the point you're making. It could be argued either way: the loading process was complete and the AD was a separate action, or the AD occured *as* the gun was going into battery, which is part of the loading process. I lean toward the latter myself, if for no other reason than it encourages competitors to ensure their firearm is in safe operating order before bring it to a match. The shooter in question stated that he'd had a similar occurence with the gun the day prior to the match and he still chose to bring it out and shoot it. It can't be argued either way, If the gun went off it was by definition in battery. "slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire" So what rule are you going to use to DQ him? Yes I want people to show up with safe equipment but I also want to follow our rule book.

OK I don't think 10.4.3 works. The gun was pretty clearly in battery when it went off so loading was finished. Here is the definition of Loading: "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire." 10.4.2 doesn't work as the round was more than 10' out. 10.4.1 doesn't work as the round stayed in the range The RO stopped him for a DQ not a broken gun. I could make a pretty good argument that he gets to re-shoot after he either proves his gun safe or switches to a backup gun.

From the video I can't see him sweep himself. Looking at where the RO is, he has a much different angle than we do. Video is 2D, life is 3D. Angles matter so............. I worked with that RO on that stage, one day during the pre-match and my impression of him was that he was a good RO and an honest guy.

Oh yeah! LMFAO

Are shorts considered equipment? The equipment being described in the equipment positioning refers to the holster and mag pouches not the shorts Well, Vince has ruled, I am sure Dino has heard about it, we have talked about it at great length. At this point you may not like it but it is the way it is. I did not like the ruling for Guga but I got over it. I suggest you do the same. We're over it in fact we'll shoot on saturday with no mag pouches on. That could be the secret Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Sure, let me know how that works out. To me its a lot faster to pull from pouches but..........

Are shorts considered equipment? The equipment being described in the equipment positioning refers to the holster and mag pouches not the shorts Well, Vince has ruled, I am sure Dino has heard about it, we have talked about it at great length. At this point you may not like it but it is the way it is. I did not like the ruling for Guga but I got over it. I suggest you do the same.

Yes Vince, and for that matter IPSC, seem to be able to do what they want with the rules. An example is what Guga Ribus did on stage 22. He ran past a target then lost his balance going back, made the shot then stepped out of the shooting area. He contiued to cut the corner off and did not come back in where he went out. Me, having read the IPSC rule book about taking shortcuts assessed 1 procedural for each shot fired after he took the short cut. He pitched a fit, and lied his butt off about what happened. The area CRO comes to see me, I told her what happened. She proceeded to argue with the IPSC RO about what the penalty should be. It is very plainly stated in the rule book. After a while the RM was called, he talked to me, drew diagrams, etc, then he ruled that because Guga didn't mean to short cut, he just lost his balance, there would be no penalty. Me I did not see that in the rules but who am I, just a lowly USPSA CRO. IPSC does what it wants to do. I think the ruling on Nils was not near as far from the rule book as the one given to Guga. Equipment position is defined as behind the hip bone, loading from a pocket is allowed, the pocket was behind the hip bone. I would not have called that on anyone.

Not on that stage way it was set up. But, you were there and shot it, right? Did he shoot the stage? Looking into the "8 ball", here comes the reply.... Signs point to no. :-)No I didn't shoot the stage, our was more of a generic statement, 90° is the same either way. I was going to argue with you but when I look at it logically you need to turn the same amount to get past the 90 either way you turn so........

First shot for Max was < 1.4 seconds. I can't remember if it was 1.36 or 1.39. Most fast guys that turned towards their guns were in the 1.8 range. He also dropped 2 points on the first target and 1 on the other one on his way to the best stage time of the match at 11.81 but he did not win the stage as Shane Cooley was at 12.05 but only dropped 1 point. I can't remember which way Shane turned. I am pretty sure Saul turned towards his gun and shot it in 12.37 down 0 for 2nd at 99%. Max ended up 3rd at 98.6%

The guy keeping score was tasked with watching the 180 on the right side of the bay at the draw. He did not make it back into position every time due to the quick turn over rate. I wonder if the Monday morning QB is taking into account Max's gun is not pointed directly ahead, even though it looks that way in the video. It is pointed well in front of him. In other words his hips can be short of 180 and the gun is still pointed past the 180. Video is 2D so it tends to flatten things out, especially when the angle is not straight on, or it is zoomed in, or both. But of course the guy a thousand miles away looking at a video where he doesn't even know if it is zoomed in, or exactly what angle it is on can make a call better than the two guys looking at it live. It must be wonderful to have that level of skill.

gbb-616

Yep and that is why video is not allowed as evidence. The guy taking the video is 15' back and to the side and is probably zoomed in so......... No way you can call where the gun is from there. I was 3' to 4' back so I can be close enough for the shooter to hear the buzzer. It looks closer but again the angle is not perfect. As to my head not moving, that is true, I try to be as still as possible for the shooter when I am in their vision. Funny thing, stand with your head facing straight out and see how far down you can see with out moving it. I can see from his head to his feet from that angle all by moving my eyes. But I guess you were there and saw it so what do I know.

Most GM's I run don't cut it all that close very often. Max's turn and draw was close and I am surprised he cut it that close. I think what you see is the fact that it is simpler to be 100% on slower shooters. In that way you may be correct. I call it if I see it. If they are so fast I can't be sure, I don't call it.

I can't say it for any other RO but if I am 100%, I call it 100% of the time. My best friend, the world champ, the slowest guy in the match, no different.

Ok so this is going to get close to politics so I am going to tread lightly. A lot of times people see something and say "they should fix that". They being government or whoever makes the rules. What normally follows is a mess of new rules and regulations that cause more harm than good. I tend to fall on the side of "if its not broken really bad, leave it alone". I think up-range starts fall in that category.

One guy had a neat trick. He picked up an empty piece of brass in his gun hand. He had to drop it before he could go for his gun. It worked.

No but I was able to work with him some. Seems like a "to the point" kind of person. The RM was the one making all the calls on the DQ's.

I have had one pointed at my foot as he came out early turning away from the gun. I waited for him to finish turning before I yelled STOP! He just dropped his head and started to unload. He knew it. I do like it when up-range starts are unloaded.

Funny, I have no gripe at all with the up-range start. Ran >1200 shooters between the pre-match and main match with no DQ for breaking 90 at the start. The vast majority started turning towards their gun. I like the fact that it was an unloaded chamber start as that makes me feel a bit more comfortable with the people turning away from their gun. I thought the up-range unloaded chamber start added a lot to this 12 round stage. My two DQ's on that stage were people running on the angle towards the front of the stage and turning the gun across their bodies so it went well past the 90 degree intercept. Again I could not call anything that was close because of my angle so my guess is a lot of people got away with a little past 90. The two I called were +-120. I had one I should have called on breaking 90 running to the left along the back and one I should have stopped on the draw but I was just not 100% so I didn't call either one. Not one of the 1200+- people I ran on that stage, had their finger in the trigger guard while running. Pretty amazing! The only finger call I made was in the pre-match where a revolver guy just had no idea how to take his finger off the trigger while moving. He was in the cooper tunnel stage and I saw it in the first section but non 100%. Got in a better position for the second segment and stopped him after 3 steps. He told the RM he was reloading so it was OK. The RM asked him which rule he wanted to be DQed for? Again in the pre-match, one guy swept himself on the cigar box stage when he was picking up his second mag. Gun was on the right edge of the box when he grabbed the first mag, as he put up the first mag the gun moved to the center of the box and when he reached for the next mag I stopped him. Another guy on the cigar box stage got a bit lost and broke 90 then swept himself. All 3 RO's yelled STOP at the same time. Again the RM gave the guy a choice on which rule he wanted for his DQ. You can't stop people with bad habits from getting a DQ unless you dumb down the stages so much it is boring.

That stage was set pretty square to the bay. The bays there have a lot of vegetation so it's not exactly easy to call off the back line. As to not wanting to call a 181 you are correct, for the draws you would have to visibly point to the right of that fault line to get me to stop you. Max got his hand on the gun before he passed 180 but he was turned before he cleared the trigger guard. Again, close but not a DQ. I took the time to turn the other way as I would not want to have an RO call me on a 181 but I am no where near a world champ.

I was the fat guy in the hat. It happens so fast they may just get away with a little as you have to be 100%. I had 30 people (out of over 1000) get that close and sent nobody home for it. One guy I should have sent home for it (hindsight), Max wasn't him. Find some pictures from the other side where they went up the line. Lots of people getting really close over there. Two went too far. He did have a 1.39 first shot on an up-range draw with a unloaded chamber. Pretty much a blur.

Lots of Low ports, and over the top swingers. Would have been a lot harder match if the No Shoots, half targets, fast swingers, and the rest of the low ports were left in. I think the Florida open was much harder than this match.

I know Jessie's gun went down on stage 28, a friend was an RO on that stage and said it was pretty bad. 1 32 round stage in the tank can make a large difference. This takes nothing away from Kaci who took a piece of lead in the forehead on 28 and bled all over the place I was the left side RO in the shoot-off Jessie was unbeatable in Open. Nobody got close to her. Ben got a little lucky on his first shoot-off run. The guy on my side missed a reload, then dropped the hammer on an empty chamber and it was still close. Ben then went on to smoke every other run. Talked to him a minute after and he said it was his first shoot-off. Once he got going he was pretty amazing.

She is pretty amazing. I ran her on 22 and it was pretty special. Her movement is at another level from any other female shooter I have seen. Very precise, smooth, fast, and intense. The all girls super squad was fun to run. A lot of great lady shooters that seemed to be taking it to another level while keeping it fun.