rmills

Vince: Leave the thread open a while longer. It's very interesting as to the comments and perceptions listed here. What is coming very apparent, is that unlike other shooting sports, USPSA is always willing to change the rules, which in turn dilutes a division from what it's original intent was. This thread has generated much more debate and comment than I would have thought when I started it. In closing, I would say that when a division is created and equipent rules are written around a "type" of gun (in this case DA), the rules should always reflect the original, underlying, intent. Yes, I have no problem with smoothing out triggers, new grips, barrel changes, sight changes, etc., but other than that, the intent of the division should remain the same. If you want to shoot single action, there's Limited and Limited 10. As for me and my friends, we'll be shooting in SSP and ESP. Take care......................

There's a reason we see few if any Para LDA's in Production Division, it's called "way too much trigger reset travel". Just looking at statistics of the guns used at the IDPA Nationals or the USPSA Factory Gun Nationals will verify this.

Unbelievable! Someone stating that a Glock has an un-fair, competitive advantage! Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus! Production Division was created for DA 1st shot pistols, period. If you want to start out with a single action shot, there's Limited and Limited 10 Divisions (ooppps! that's now incorrect, we now have the DA-Cocked Classification for shooters who can't make the long shot DA).

Good analogy Vince! It's incredible that USPSA's board has decided to "water down" the rules because some people who have now decided to shoot Production Division, can't make a long shot using DA. Since USPSA is trying to comfort those folks by changing the rules, I guess I should complain that when using my Glock in Production Division, I'm at a disadvantage since I can't cock the hammer and get the single action 1st shot!

No Flex: Every club DOES NOT follow the rules. That's one of the big issues we face today. Clubs not recognizing approved divisions, allowing stages with more than 9 shots required from one position, and on and on. As Ohio State Coordinator, you are aware of the problems I'm referencing here. The last match at our local club had 25 rounds from one position, and yes, it was designed by a guy with 27 round mags who could care less about Production or Limited 10 Divisions. Earlier in the year, there was a stage with 32 rounds required from one position. It never ends. When asked about the rule book violations in course design, one is told to either shut up and shoot, or go home. We did, 18 of us. We now shoot IDPA.

Flex: Didn't we just have some other rule changes involving 9mm major and 8 shot revolvers? One may rationalize it any way they can. Take care.......................

That's the key to the success of IDPA and also SASS. Stable rules, an organization that supports all members, not just the pro's, and an atmosphere at the matches that makes one want to be there. Yes, we've heard since the beginning of IDPA that it was going to fail due to many reasons, but how long as it been, 8 years? Yet it continues to grow in spite of what we see in these forums. Take care..................

Gary: You are right. There are other options. USPSA continues on it's evolutional path in becoming an elitist organization. It has now become the next "Bullseye". While intentionally ignoring the successes of other organizations and analyzing what creates that success, USPSA continues to attempt to be the big fish in it's very small pond. It's evident all around, monthly club matches with stages requiring 25 to 35 rounds from one position, clubs not recognizing independent divisions such as Production and Limited 10, the "I've got my Open Gun and Hi-Caps so who cares about those who start shooting Open today" crowd, and the constant rule changes. When I stated several months ago the intentions of myself and others in our area to not renew our USPSA memberships, you stated that we should hang around and see what's was going to happen. Well, we did. What we see happening is nothing. We also have watched a steady decline in attendance at all local USPSA club matches and a steady growth in attendance at local IDPA matches, especially at the club I belong to where the IDPA match attendance continues to grow while the USPSA attendance continues to drop. Yes, we will take advantage of the "other options" available to us and shoot IDPA.

Sorry but I see this as weakening the division rules. Production was working and not broken. Because a few shooters didn't like the DA only on the 1st shot, we are going to change the rules to accomodate them. I know that everyone doesn't want to hear this, BUT, whether you like it or not, IDPA continues to grow due to the stable, non-changing rules. SSP Division will not be changed to accomodate anyone, period. If you want to shoot SA/DA, shoot in ESP or CDP Division (yes, Glock 21's Sig's, and other .45ACP pistols can shoot in CDP Division). Contrary to popular belief, pistols other than Wison .45's do compete and win in that division. OOOPPPPS! I strayed from the topic.

I could see someone drawing thier pistol, starting to extend it towards the target with their finger on the trigger at that point, cocking the hammer, when the hammer is almost fully cocked their thumb slips off causing the firearm to shift a bit in their hand allowing the finger to nudge the trigger. Am I overthinking this?

Hey everyone: Let's stay on the topic. Is this rule change (USPSA) for the purpose of allowing thumbcocking? Lookout for a lot of AD's on this one!

The current issue of Front Sight has an article relating to the new Production Division Rules. It states that the "First shot must be fired double action" clause was being removed. I took this to mean that one can now cock a pistol such as a Beretta 92, put the safety on, and then fire the 1st shot single action. Gary Stevens (Area 5 Director) told me that's not the case. Can anyone explain why this wording was removed and what is the purpose of removing this language? Thanks!

Bill, I have to disagree with you on this one. I've shot a couple of area matches and as a B Class Limited shooter, I can tell you that it made one heck of a difference in the fact that other B Class shooters shot on a warm, sunny day, and the next day I shot on a windy, rainy, cold day, with dry cleaning bags covering the targets. Most of us that day got our butts kicked by the guys who shot the day before. We didn't complain as that's the nature of the game. You've got to be able to shoot in any conditions. My point is that this situation should apply to ALL competitors and that we not cater to the Pro-Shooters with special priviledges in regards to conditions. If Robbie shoots in the sun and Todd shoots in the rain, so be it. Though again, as USPSA is an amateur sport that caters to the pro's, we won't see a change.

I use Chip McCormick .38 Super mags in my Springfield 9mm. They hold 10 rounds and run flawlessly with factory 9mm or reloads with no re-working. They are available from Brownells. Wilsons work OK with 9 rounds, but always seem to have problems feeding when loaded to the full 10 rounds.

We have a range that consists of four huge shooting bays that we built a few years ago for USPSA competition. Most months we hold one IDPA match but sometimes we hold two. We typically run 6-9 stages and charge $15. Since we don't have to send in classification fees, we usually generate positive income for the club (unless we need to purchase targets, etc.) Our bays all run parallel to each other which allows us to process shooters very quickly. Years ago, when I ran the USPSA matches, we processed upwards of 45 shooters in 2 to 2.5 hours. Range facilites and stage planning are the keys to rapidly processing shooters while allowing them to have a great time. my 2 cents.....................

The competitors who are usually squaded together as the "Super Squad" should send their requests in like everyone else. An earlier post mentioned that the Super Squad should shoot together so that they could all shoot under the same conditions (shadows, sun, rain, etc.). Why? Persons competing for Top A, B, C, and D class are not given the luxury of having the match conditions catered solely to their needs. As someone posted elsewhere, USPSA is an amateur supported sport which exists to support the professionals.

Nick: No, it's not a "Stupid" rule, it's an IPDA Rule. Unlike USPSA which changes the rules every six months to accomodate gamers and whiners, IDPA offers rules stability to insure that competition is based on shooting skills and not on an equipment race. Opps! Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.

I've used Hornady "Dimension" dies for 7+ years. They have always sized almost completely to the bottom of the case. I tried Lee then Dillon to no avail. The Hornady's have been going strong and after 7 years the Titanium Nitride coating on the sizing die is showing no wear.

I've worked on my Glock triggers for the last 10 years. I've done some extremely reliable and functional tuning in my time (from light and smooth for IDPA, to no pre-travel takeup for USPSA). My question about triggers was in regards to safeties. In the case where I removed all pre-travel, the only intact safety was the lever bar on the trigger ( the lever itself was modified to keep it functional). In seeing a lot of the "Trigger" jobs being offered by Novak's and others, I was just curious as to whether or not anyone had come up with a creative way to still keep the drop safety working (maybe a high gain angled cut on the trigger bar?). I'm going to check the USPSA rules in regards to safeties. As much as I would like to build an Open Glock (I shot SVI Open pistols for years, a Glock Open pistol intrigues me), I want to make certain that it would be considered legal.

Hi Matt: Is the pretravel removed on your Competition Triggers? If so, is the only intact safety the little swing bar on the trigger? Thanks

In regards to all of the "Race" trigger jobs out there that eliminate all of the takeup travel, I know the trigger stop lever on the trigger is still active, but is the drop safety plunger still utilized with a modified trigger bar?

Anyone have any opinions as to the best 9mm major barrel for a Glock 34? I'm going to be building an open Glock (yes I want one to go with my open SVI's). I understand that due to the design of the Glock, a 100% fully supported barrel cannot be designed to work in the Glock, but what's the best option out there?

Mr. Stevens: I know that true single actions are not allowed. I was refering to the proposed rule change that allows for a DA/SA pistol to begin a COF with the hammer cocked thereby allowing a single action shot on the 1st round and every round thereafter. In regards to the Springfield XD, it is a single action mechanism, period. Although the trigger may feel like a double action, it is not. Pulling the trigger does not pull the striker back. It is defined by it's actual manufacturer in Croatia as a single action.

In reviewing the proposed Production Rules changes and some of the comments here, it would appear that the BOD has broken down and diluted the rules of a growing and popular division. Allowing "cocked and locked", so as to give the shooter a single action shot on the 1st shot and thus every shot after (this applies to Berettas, CZ's, etc.) is very much not in the original spirit of the division. Allowing 8.5" revolvers as well as 8 shot revolvers further moves the division away from it's intended roots. Did I read one of the previous posts correctly? Can a shooter now place mag pouches in front of the hipbone? If these new rules are enacted, it will be a major disappointment for a lot of shooters currently shooting Production. Again, we had a good set of Production rules. If one did not like the Production rules, they could play in another division. There is a reason IDPA's SSP division keeps growing (and IDPA in general). It's rules stability.

Only if you feel that it decreases your reload time. After shooting SSP division in IDPA for a while, I've gotten quite used to doing speed reloads without having a magwell. I feel that I can reload the Glock without a magwell just as fast as I could load my SVI with it's huge magwell. It's just practice, practice, practice.