MRMAJOR

I would just like to say that the *thumb rest [generic]* should not be compared to *thumb rest [generic]* rest as they are totally different. Also my personal opinion of those posters who dis it without even shooting it are just plain blowing smoke. Come on guys if you have not shot it and you are making an opinion,it sounds like you are trying to be an expert on something you know nothing about.

Trying to get back to the OP question about grip and the *thumb rest [generic]* in contrast to regular thumbrest. I have shot with and without a regular thumbrest and now for several years the *thumb rest [generic]*. There is just no comparison between a regular thumbrest and a *thumb rest [generic]*. The grip is way different with the *thumb rest [generic]* for sure, and MUCH easier to get consistent grip every time. Actually the grip is a no brainer just put your thumb on and squeeze. Could not be easier. I have not gotten a bad grip since I started using it. And no more death grip either, it is very easy to use. I have not found it to cause "weird dot movement" speculated by others, in fact the dot movement is way less with *thumb rest [generic]* and no sideways movement. I have not seen too many at big matches but a lot of the guys at my local club got them this year and they are shooting way faster. I used to be able to beat most of them most of time, but now that most of our better shooters have the *thumb rest [generic]* I cant beat them anymore (probably not the only factor but one of them). So I think there is no doubt from what I observed it make folks faster. Also since the guys started using it, I have not heard the proverbial “ I didn’t get a good grip”. So besides me others feel the grip is way superior to traditional method or thumbrest. Bottom line *thumb rest [generic]* is definitely not your fathers thumb rest.

I know I am in the minority opinion here, but after trying them all over the years, I think the Grip comes first and stance should naturally follow whatever grip method works best for you. I think if you try to focus on any particular stance, it forces grip errors. I think when you have your have your grip 100% down, the body position becomes secondary and will naturally assume what is best for you. Some grip styles are much more forgiving of stance than others. That being said, once you get your grip down, I find most shooters have what I would call an athletic stance, that is it is naturally athletic for them. I think the whole Point of Aim theory for aiming starting with stance is actually counterproductive to racing and advanced tactical shooting. Probably it is good for beginners, LEO or Professional Carry folks though.

This is not my gun, but friend asked me to post for him. It's 9 Major. Interesting thing is how he mounted *thumb rest [generic]*. He cut off the bottom where screw holes customarily are and WELDED the *thumb rest [generic]* to mount. Whatever he did, he is shooting faster

The answer I think is the ETAC GoGun TwisterPuc. Makes Gas tube cleaning much less necessary. Has had excellent reviews on the Saiga Forum Carolina Shooters has them.

Well I love my Benelli and have for a long time like so many folks BUT for my two cents there is no doubt the softest shooting Shotgun is a properly tuned Saiga (AK47). And there are so many things an IPSC shooter can fine tune like loads, amount of gas let into and regulated by system and recoil springs etc, etc..

Benny Built me one 12 years ago. I have several open guns but his is only one that has NEVER let me down. Benny does superb work period.

Greg from Carolina shooters is right, BUT there is a much easier and more reliable solution, The TwisterPuc, which is also available at Carolina Shooters. The TwisterPuc does not totaly eliminate fouling but helps A LOT! The Ironman Guys should love it.

First let me freely admit, I have several horses in this race. A beloved Benelli that has never let me down (Originally bought because Bill Clinton wanted to make them illegal) A true love of USPSA and desire to advance the sport. And a fascination with Saiga Shotguns because they seem to have truly the most potential for what our sport is all about, a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. DVC forever! But mostly my horse is the core value that our sport is about going the fastest you can without governors. About the tactical, limited or class or whatever, I have no opinion because I frankly can’t fathom all the changing intricacies of class. Pb80s suggestions for class sound ok to me. Pb80 is right, for about $800 or less you can get a setup, box stock that will be extremely completive to say the least, so maybe it’s not fair for Mag and Tube loaders to go head to head. But in Open there should be no favoritism in course design and sky’s the limit. Benelli Girl and philg80 are right on. And I LOVE Benelli Girls idea of a snake stage, Kill it or do not pass go. (Do we PLEASE get to choose which weapon and load to start with? ) Philg80 is right on with his post. I think a really relevant point he made is there are only around 3 (and I don’t know who they are) good Saiga Meisters. Whoever they are, they are all making progress REALLY fast. And these guys have to overcome the federal import hurdle. And it’s hard to make a buck at it because it so labor intensive. If they can make a gun go faster, they already have enough hurdles let’s not make it harder for them with goofy stage design. These are the guys who have the most potential for increasing speed and giving us goodies. But I think philg80 says it all when he says: Yes with ALL of the upgrades a Saiga can be far and away a better platform for 3 gun competition

What made box mag fed shotguns appealing were the courses of fire one typically found up until about 1.5-2 years ago when Saigas started becoming common. Since then I have seen matches move towards stages with the following: 1) 12 round required or less 2) Slug usage through out the course rather than at the beginning, end, or once in the middle 3) All rounds start loose in a box 4) Only one round in the gun at a time 5) Low ports, roll over prone shooting If all these things had been common to begin with, the guns likely would not have appeared in competition as much as they are now. The fact they often can only be used in open has limited their popularity in any case. Are these things a conscious effort to screw with mag feds, or was it a spontaneous effort to make stages more challenging? I dunno. I do know people are resistant to change. Mag fed shooters are scratching their heads at the general changes in stage design, and tube fed shooters certainly don't want their guns to be obsolete over night. I think we will see more acceptance of mag fed shotguns when one is domestically produced. The CMMG-12 might be the answer to that. The other thing we might see is people just not want to bother with shotguns at all, and more rifle/pistol matches popping up. The ACTS Rifle/Pistol match in Tucson here regularly attracts as many or more shooters than the local level multi-gun/3-gun matches. I am a little late to this discussion but all these screw with the Saigas stuff really peaves me. What part of "Open" does not explain itself. The concept of Open in our sport has been push the limit and see what works best. If you have firearm that is not as fast as the other guy, too bad, compete in another class where you feel more comfortable. There is absolutely no question Saigas and any other mag feed weapon are much faster than tube feeders when lots of rounds have to be shot. If it were not the case, our US military would be shooting some variant of 1894 Winchester. So when course designers put Saigas at a disadvantage by various non real world requirements, it is obviously Anti Saiga, pure and simple I am very sympathetic to guys who have spent money and then some other guy has faster (and more expensive weapon). I was actually annoyed after I had spent a lot of money and time to make my then 175 pf ( then legal) open pistol shoot sweet only to have them lower pf to 165 and then all the hard work was wasted. Now to specifics, who the heck ever heard of COF in pistol require rounds to be loose? Or who ever heard of pistol course requireing you to change ammo types in mid course? Or one round in weapon at time, are we going back to muzzle loaders too? Let's be real, Open is Open and our tradition is pretty much anything goes. As a sport I dont recall us ever trying to stack courses in favor of one type of weapon or other. One of things that make our sport so exciting is the change and advance in equipment and technique to find out what works BEST, not politically popular. Saigas are very exciting equipment to work with because its kind of like more or less like single stack 1911s were 20 plus years ago. Then creative gunsmiths came up with ways to make them faster and fast forward to today where we have all kind of options and go fast goodies. If not, we would still all be shooting 1911 single stack 45ACP. Now, I love my tube fed Benelli and have for many years. but my pesonal opinion is Saigas when properly modified are just plain faster in ALL respects to tube feeders and inherantly shoot softer too. Let's face it, a mistake USPSA has made in past is not letting EVERYBODY into the tent. In Pistol this has been rectified with the Stock classs. Let's not make same mistake again with Shotgun by defacto limiting some manufacturers. There is a division now for Tube Feeders if they feel their weapons are not as fast as mag loaders, its called limited. Now Saiga haters and prejudiced stage designes, What part of OPEN do you not understand?

Do you have the new version? How well is it woking for you? Is it bright enough for slug shots facing sun? Inquiring minds just want to know

That is a realy neat looking part and dirt cheap for what you get! A very nice inexpensive solution. The stock charging handle on Saiga sucks. As Saiga shooters have learned the hard way charging (racking bolt) can slow you down. There are two other solutions that are more costly. You can have a vertical extension welded on which allows your left hand to sweep accross the top of dust cover instead of reaching up over and arround. The slickest and fastest solution of all but most expensive is a left sided charging handle, no fumbling at all just hold the pistol grip and rack like you would a race gun with a slide racker. Requires cutting the dust cover and welding a left sided handle to bolt. I believe Esteban and Travis Haley came up with this An no this is not a mirror reversed pic, it really is Left side of Gun as you can see by factory stampings

That's a really nice looking setup. What kind of magwell is it and does it work well? Do you have to alter your mags to make it work? Is that one of the new Millenium Magwells?

philg80, do you have a simple way to ramp? There is no "simple" way, but patience is the key. The barrel does NOT have to be removed to get a correct feed ramp on a Saiga. Would it be better, probably, but the average person does not have the ability to remove the barrel and do the work. I personally used a die grinder with 3" long sanding spindles, some coarse and some fine, and just had the patience to go slow. The best reason to do it this way is so that you can "blend" the trunnion and barrel ramp together. Remove all the internals from your gun and go up through the magwell while your gun is in a vice and you can reach the bottom and both sides of your saiga chamber. The top of the barrel has a hood so there is nothing to ramp there. The reason to ramp the chamber is because as the shotgun shell enters the chamber it has the ability to kick upward and jam the gun when it comes in contact with the face of a non ramped chamber. Go slow and anyone with steady hands can really go along way in helping the reliability of their Saiga 12. From philg80's post it sounds like he has gunsmithing skills beyond most of us. I did ask Esteban at www.gogun.us about this. And Ill paraphrase his answer. He said you definitely do NOT want to relieve (blend) the trunion for two reasons, First it is not necessary to ensure propper feeding. But second and much more importantly, it will weaken the Gun. The trunion is where all the stress between barrel and receiver gets delivered and you do not want to weaken it. He says you definetly want to remove the barrel from the receiver before ramping. Now the tricky part for home gunsmith is when reattaching the barrel to trunion and receiver it requires a lot of force and alignment must be absolutely perfect. For this he uses a 20 ton hydraulic press, but I dont think he uses the full capactiy of the press. If the home gunsmither has access to a hydraulic press it will make the job MUCH easier. I admire philg80 for his courage and ability. My self I have ruined more than my share of parts by overaggressive dremeling so I am hesitant to try this myself. Thanks to philg80 for his excellent suggestions.

Really good to get advice from a guy with lots of experience, thanks philg80 This is real interesting problem that is for real and can ruin your day. This problem has come up before. I agree amo selection is key and lousy amo doesnt cut it. philg80 probably has a lot of experience doing his own gunsmithing ,but a little caution is in order those with less shop skills. I asked Esteban from ETAC and he said the propper way to ramp a Saiga 12 requires removing the barrel from reciever. Unless you are comfortable getting trunions back and in perfect alignment, best left to someone who has done it before. He does not recommend the dremel without removing the barrel. I dont know exactly what magic he performs but several of the local 3 gunners have had him do that mod and I have not seen any feed problems with them. philg80, do you have a simple way to ramp?