Is subsonic cast (9mm) better or worse shooting at AR500 steel?

[taymag]

I would think it would be better, but then thought maybe higher velocity ammo just turns to shrapnel and ends up being safer.

 

This coming after a club member getting cut open from a ricochet. I've been shooting a lot of steel recently but am semi concerned about the safety of it, especially from USPSA distances (all my steel is in perfect shape aka no pitting or I get rid of it)

 

I put this in the reloading section cause I just assume everyone here has a better ballistic brain from tinkering with these kinds of things

[Kaldor]

Range?  I will not shoot steel closer than 50 feet with a pistol or PCC.  Rifle is 100 yards minimum.

 

I shoot at AR500 plate from Shootsteel.  All my plates are 1/2" thick which does an excellent job.

[Beef15]

My experience as a caster, lead scrounger, and shooter of lots of steel, anecdotal, not scientific as I don't care enough to set up repeatable experiments, don't measure BHN, and don't chrono every round I shoot.

 

Hard alloy (water dropped COWW) at a certain impact velocity (still sub) will shatter, turning to just about dust with some 1-2mm fragments (spall), the distribution is typically circular and IIRC read 20° relative to the face of the target, I never bothered measuring the angle, as it rarely matters unless placing steel above/below/beside things that will be ruined, but the side and upward spall may travel significant distances.

 

Soft alloy will pretty much always flatten to some extent relative to impact velocity, it will usually ricochet very little mostly (not perfectly) perpendicular to the face of the target and generally fall within a few yards. 

 

Shoot steel enough times and you will be hit by stuff. 

 

[dillon]

The face of the target should be angled downward at least a few degrees, so shrapnel is reflected downward. Years ago, I did testing with cast bullets and steel plates for Cowboy Action Shooting. My personal testing was that at velocities under 450 FPS, lead bullets would fail to consistently flatten out, and sometimes ricochet rearward. The degree of this varies with the hardness of the bullet. 

[njl]

On 7/9/2017 at 10:01 PM, taymag said:

I would think it would be better, but then thought maybe higher velocity ammo just turns to shrapnel and ends up being safer.

 

This coming after a club member getting cut open from a ricochet. I've been shooting a lot of steel recently but am semi concerned about the safety of it, especially from USPSA distances (all my steel is in perfect shape aka no pitting or I get rid of it)

 

I put this in the reloading section cause I just assume everyone here has a better ballistic brain from tinkering with these kinds of things

 

This seems like a follow-up to your other recent post about how to best hang steel targets?  I'm very curious exactly what the circumstances were at your club where a member was cut by a ricochet (jacket fragment?...or do you know?).  i.e. Distance, type of steel being shot (AR500, mild/A36, unknown), method steel was hung or positioned, angle, distance, etc.

 

I've put thousands of rounds into a variety of steel targets.  Thousands of people shoot GSSF matches every year where falling steel plates are shot at 11yds.  Good steel targets should be AR500 and should be angled slightly downward.  

 

I used to a shoot a weekly head to head steel plate match using racks that were "bubba welded" together from rebar and whatever scrap steel was available.  To say they were badly cratered would be an understatement.  Ricochets were just part of the match, and you either dealt with it, or learned to strategically stand mostly behind someone dumber with your hands behind your back...or if you were really serious about not getting hit, you'd watch from "the shop" separated from the range by a bullet-resistant glass window.   At that match, they encouraged use of non-jacketed lead...but that's not really an option for someone who doesn't reload.

 

I now have my own hanging plate rack, using 3/8" AR500 plates, and have shot them with everything from 115gr Federal aluminum 9mm to factory .45acp FMJ...though mostly with 147gr FP coated bullets and 200gr .45 coated bullets, because the club where I primarily shoot has a rule against shooting jacketed bullets at steel.  My AR500 plates are still perfectly smooth, other than the borders between painted surface / paint knocked off surface.  Even with this setup though (AR500, hanging by chain, angled downward), I occasionally get a bit of lead splash back, but nothing yet that's even left a mark much less broke skin.  

 

I think as long as you keep the velocity up at reasonable levels, you'll find that lead bullets will basically pancake against steel.  i.e. Some fragments of the bullet do likely spread out in all directions roughly 90* off the bullet's course, but below the steel, you'll find a collection of lead discs.  I should bring some home next time and weigh them to see what portion is typically lost.

 

Anyway...if people were regularly injured by shooting "proper steel targets" at safe distances, I doubt GSSF would still include Glock-the-Plates in all their matches.  I think my gun club's prohibition of jacketed bullets on steel is overly conservative, and a result of "if we allowed it, someone would bring mild steel targets, shoot them, and someone will get hurt and sue the club."  We're not allowed to shoot any sort of steel on the rifle range.  There used to be a gong 100yds out...but it was scrap mild steel, looked like Swiss cheese, and go figure, it was throwing ricochets unpredictably.  Where I used to shoot, we had a proper hanging AR500 rifle gong, and shot the crap out of it at 100yds with 5.56 and 7.62, and never had a problem with it.

 

Dillon, "under 450fps"???  Was that from a firearm or a sling shot?  I wouldn't recommend anyone shoot any kind of hard target with bullets moving that slow.  I've posted previously about the 230gr JHP that I shot at a bowling pin and had come back and badly cut the bridge of my nose,  That one was likely right around 700fps.

[taymag]

4 hours ago, njl said:

 

This seems like a follow-up to your other recent post about how to best hang steel targets?  I'm very curious exactly what the circumstances were at your club where a member was cut by a ricochet (jacket fragment?...or do you know?).  i.e. Distance, type of steel being shot (AR500, mild/A36, unknown), method steel was hung or positioned, angle, distance, etc.

 

I've put thousands of rounds into a variety of steel targets.  Thousands of people shoot GSSF matches every year where falling steel plates are shot at 11yds.  Good steel targets should be AR500 and should be angled slightly downward.  

 

I used to a shoot a weekly head to head steel plate match using racks that were "bubba welded" together from rebar and whatever scrap steel was available.  To say they were badly cratered would be an understatement.  Ricochets were just part of the match, and you either dealt with it, or learned to strategically stand mostly behind someone dumber with your hands behind your back...or if you were really serious about not getting hit, you'd watch from "the shop" separated from the range by a bullet-resistant glass window.   At that match, they encouraged use of non-jacketed lead...but that's not really an option for someone who doesn't reload.

 

I now have my own hanging plate rack, using 3/8" AR500 plates, and have shot them with everything from 115gr Federal aluminum 9mm to factory .45acp FMJ...though mostly with 147gr FP coated bullets and 200gr .45 coated bullets, because the club where I primarily shoot has a rule against shooting jacketed bullets at steel.  My AR500 plates are still perfectly smooth, other than the borders between painted surface / paint knocked off surface.  Even with this setup though (AR500, hanging by chain, angled downward), I occasionally get a bit of lead splash back, but nothing yet that's even left a mark much less broke skin.  

 

I think as long as you keep the velocity up at reasonable levels, you'll find that lead bullets will basically pancake against steel.  i.e. Some fragments of the bullet do likely spread out in all directions roughly 90* off the bullet's course, but below the steel, you'll find a collection of lead discs.  I should bring some home next time and weigh them to see what portion is typically lost.

 

Anyway...if people were regularly injured by shooting "proper steel targets" at safe distances, I doubt GSSF would still include Glock-the-Plates in all their matches.  I think my gun club's prohibition of jacketed bullets on steel is overly conservative, and a result of "if we allowed it, someone would bring mild steel targets, shoot them, and someone will get hurt and sue the club."  We're not allowed to shoot any sort of steel on the rifle range.  There used to be a gong 100yds out...but it was scrap mild steel, looked like Swiss cheese, and go figure, it was throwing ricochets unpredictably.  Where I used to shoot, we had a proper hanging AR500 rifle gong, and shot the crap out of it at 100yds with 5.56 and 7.62, and never had a problem with it.

 

Dillon, "under 450fps"???  Was that from a firearm or a sling shot?  I wouldn't recommend anyone shoot any kind of hard target with bullets moving that slow.  I've posted previously about the 230gr JHP that I shot at a bowling pin and had come back and badly cut the bridge of my nose,  That one was likely right around 700fps.

Thanks for all the answers, hadn't been back to check on this. This (post) is my thoughts exactly, and as far as the person cut, I was told about it (which was probably an exaggerated story).

 

The amount of matches shot at semi-close range are astronomical and you never hear about it, but those one or two "stories" always have me wondering. But the reason for asking was because the difference in several steel targets on a few stages and me renting a bay and shooting 500+ rounds at steel, just weighing my odds hah.

 

I love shooting steel, even if its just mixed in a match or practice and the place I practice charges $20 to rent steel which isn't bad, but its not terribly expensive to buy and you get more variety than they have and I can just throw it in the truck bed. I park in my "bay" at the practice club so it wouldn't be much of a pain to bring my own.

 

Looks like I will carry on with my shooting, as long as you have good glasses it seems to be safer than some make it out to be.

 

[njl]

Good glasses are very important.  My bowling pin match incident was a wake-up call in multiple ways.  I need glasses for correction, and until then, I'd just shoot in my daily wear glasses.  After that, I got my first pair of Rudy's.  I have two now.  I don't shoot in my regular glasses anymore.  It also started my investigation of lighter/faster .45 bullets to keep the velocity up at generally accepted safer levels for pin shooting while still keeping the recoil sub-factory.  i.e. 185gr or 200gr at >800 fps.  When shooting steel with others, if I have to take of my glasses to wipe sweat off my face, or for any other reason, I turn 180* away from the plates.