Anybody here try moly coating their own cast bullets?

[Chills1994]

Hi all,

You can read up on the liquid here:

http://www.sandstromproducts.com/pdfs/e736.pdf

I tried tinkering around with it a few times about a year or so ago.

I was gripping each bullet one at a time in a set of needle nose pliers and then dipping the bullet into the one quart can.

Then I was setting them on some paper for them to dry over night. The excess liquid was running down the bullet and would dry as a clump and be stuck to the paper the next morning.

I am guessing that the big boys like Precision, Black Bullets International, and/or Break Creek do something like tumbling candy at the 30 second mark in this video:

And I am wondering if they are heated at the same time they are tumbling to bake it on.

If they aren't heated when tumbling, then my next best guess is that they are placed on mesh or screen racks that are vibrated to shake the excess liquid off.

The other hiccup I think I found was that the bullets would have to be sized down a thousandth or maybe even two to allow for the thickness of the coating.

So a .40 cal bullet, would probably need to be sized down to 0.399" before it was coated. To start out with a .401" or a .402" bullet and the coat it, I think, leads to having the coating "shell" getting shaved off when the bullet is seated into the case. But then again, it might be because I didn't bake the coating on.

What say you?

[charliez]

Uh ... the PDF file says in the Application section to spray the liquid on and then air dry it. (there's instruction on how to thin it as well).

One suggestion would be to use a wood / plastic cutting board and drill shallow holes to fit the back end of the bullets, just enough to make them stand captured upright.

Stick the bullets in, and then spray it with the liquid, forced air drying is mentioned as well, I suppose you could apply as many coats as you need to.

Hope this helps.

[Chills1994]

Oh yeah, I read that part about it being air spray-able, but I did talk to their technical people and they did say the bullets could be dunked in it. They also sell it in aerosol cans.

From another forum just recently somebody told me that a concrete mixer might work, especially if heat was somehow added to it.

The solids are so thick in that liquid that I just have a hard time imagining that the sprayer nozzles would NOT clog up.

Jeesh...that would be quite the mess, and I would need something like a finishing (spray) booth and a respirator mask to do those bullets. That liquid is HOT! I think it has MEK in it.

Thanks for your reply.

[gm iprod]

I have used and sold a reasonable range of different polymer / moly lubed bullets. The projectiles are always sized correctly "before" adding the coating. The coating is there to protect the bullet in it's travel down the barrel. I suspect that undersizing will adversely affect your accuracy.

[charliez]

Another possible way to apply it, is to use a rotating mesh cylinder that is slightly angled down.

Spray the bullets while its travelling down the mesh cylinder (to create an even coat), and maybe hot air to force air dry the bullets.

As far as the solids go, thinning per their instructions is probably the best thing to do.

[redmanfixit]

You can search patent database files for process descriptions. They're pretty vague, but be diligent. Usually the tumblers are indeed heated. A big bit of it though is the medium you use to "hold" the coating material. You want it to cling but not absorb. Sometimes it's ball bearings, for example but you gotta watch it because the bullet is softer and the ball bearing will peen the bullet.

What fun! Process development!

[halogrinder]

cement mixer:

a tupper ware with the bullets and goo in there...... shake and shake.

perhaps putting them onto some screen door mesh or something would make life easier? the "drips" would just attach to the thin wire, instead of towl or surface?

[redmanfixit]

http://www.patents.com/Method-coating-bull...S5910345/en-US/

Ok there's how.

If it's for yourself you'll be fine. Start selling them and I bet his lawyers call!

[Chills1994]

You rock, dude!

Thanks!

If I could make these on my own, there is no way I could keep up with the demand casting and sizing by hand.

From what I have seen of used automated casting and sizing equipment, the used stuff still goes fairly high.

Plus...plus... I was on kitco.com today looking at spot lead prices. Not to scare anyone...or put people into a buying frenzy, but the spot lead price NOW is nearly 3 times as high as it was this time last year.

Maybe if I knew more about the warehouse supply charts kitco also publishes, I could put two and two together and maybe come to some reasonable conclusion about commercial moly/jacketed bullet prices 3 months from now.

So even if I had the automated equipment on hand, I would ...err... could get gouged on the current price of lead that it probably wouldn't make sound financial/business sense to get into it.

And lastly... I thought some patents were good for say... just like 7 years... and maybe there are other patent protections good for 14 years.

That patent you linked to was from 1999, so if it is just a 7 year protection, theoretically then, I would be clear.

[Chills1994]

Oh, yeah... I do value my liver. I did mention that the Sandstrom 27A was HOT! Like in lacquer or acetone kinda hot, right?

[Chills1994]

Pardon the triple post here but...FWIW... when I do get to tinkering around experiment wise with a commercially moly bullet over X grains of WST vs. a cast boolit with a wax type of lube again over say Y grains of WST... my gut instinct tells me that the smoke is going to be the same.

As my previous experiments confirmed....the smoke "ain't" in the lube .

[belus]

And lastly... I thought some patents were good for say... just like 7 years... and maybe there are other patent protections good for 14 years.

Generally around 17 years from issue (officially 20 years from date of filing). This is assuming all the maintenance fees are paid. If the inventor/owner lapses in their payment the patent could become public at four, eight, or twelve years.

There's an extension of about five years (soon to increase) for pharmaceuticals because the FDA approval process frequently takes around seven. This makes the time they're protected on the market about equal.

edit

Good news though. Using the USPTO's Patent Application Information Retrieval (PAIR) system it shows the inventor did not pay their four year maintenance fee and the patent expired 07-09-2003.

Edited December 10, 2009 by belus

[AriM]

all great information.....but I still can't put my finger on how ANY benefit of moly coating outweighs the problems....i think the current range of "black bullets" are coated using a similar process, because that is a fast and efficient way of applying lube to a large quantity of projectiles.....also I am a bit confused by the current "black bullet" range of projectiles....I believe the moly is engrossed or waxed within a substrate, for adhesion....I seem to remember moly being a powder...similar to graphite....my guess is that the wax/substrate is causing a lot of trouble....as wax builds up and hardens and layers itself on mechanical surfaces...it traps the remaining moly powder within it and essentially leaves a deposit on mechanical surfaces that is VERY difficult to remove, without using abrasives and harsh solvents...which cause more wear on parts than the moly seems to save....just a theory of mine

[jmorris]

The solid film lubricants used for the “black bullets” only contain around 10% molybdenum disulfide. They are all together different than "moly powder" coated bullets.

[AriM]

The solid film lubricants used for the “black bullets” only contain around 10% molybdenum disulfide. They are all together different than "moly powder" coated bullets.

yes, that was my exact point.....the moly is engrossed in a wax or other substrate....which causes serious cleaning issues as it layers and builds up....the moly itself seems like a great thing....it's a dry lube....I am all for that....maybe I didn't word my post (2 posts ago) in a way that was clear....I am 100% with you on the "black bullets" and traditional "moly. coating" being 2 VERY different things.....I think that the "b;ack bullet" thing is just a simple way to lube lots of bullets (cheaply) followed by great marketing to sell people on something that is in fact no different, than a traditional wax based lube...well slightly different, but not enough to justify the problems....I think no more "black bullets" for me....too much trouble....nothing wrong with hard cast....just a thought....I will do some more experimenting and see if I can find a happy medium....maybe this is a topic that has been beat to death already.....but it's not a discussion that I have participated in, so I am left with only my own experiences as the judge....love to hear some more thoughts from the forum on this topic...

[jmorris]

I have never had any problems with coated bullets like precisions, for example. With the loads I have used they provide a lot less smoke and clean up over wax lubed lead.

I have also coated cast bullets with moly powder and ceramic media. The bullets came out looking like black mirrors but left black spider webs in the barrel.

I am beginning to think it might be easier to set up for tumble plating rather than coating bullets though.

[Chills1994]

Thanks j, for chiming in again.

I think some of the bullet feeder or bullet collator manufacturers recommend against regular cast bullets because the rotating plate can get caught on the lube groove.

IIRC, the precision moly coated bullets are actually swaged, I think, and consequently don't have a lube groove.

[AriM]

Thanks j, for chiming in again.

I think some of the bullet feeder or bullet collator manufacturers recommend against regular cast bullets because the rotating plate can get caught on the lube groove.

IIRC, the precision moly coated bullets are actually swaged, I think, and consequently don't have a lube groove.

you are correct....they are swaged....I wonder how he is able to do that and keep the price so reasonable....he must know something about lead wire that we don't.....on the other hand....running bullets through a sizer is also "swaging"

[Chills1994]

Oh...I dunno...economy of scale....

If you got the super duper high end automated equipment that could churn out thousands of bullets per hour, then all the more better.

I really couldn't imagine somebody who is in business taking a guillotine style hand operated cutter cutting 3/8" diameter lead wire to say 5/8" long to make the lead cores.

And then placing them in a press by hand one at a time and pushing down on a handle.

There is no way you could keep up.

The demand for bullets is still that high.

I could possibly see some equipment operator feeding a machine by hand, and either hitting two buttons or a foot pedal to activate the hydraul ram.

Somewhere here on this forum, jmorris has pictures of his homemade automated lubri-sizer.

I guess if you had a core collator and feeder rigged up with some micro switches, you might be able to cobble up something kinda automatic with a Corbin hydraulic swaging press.

The catch, though, is I do NOT know exactly how the Corbin hydro press gets the bullets to eject out of the dies. If they can get pushed right through the bottom like on a Star, that would make things simpler. But I suspect the finsihed swaged bullet has to come out the same way it went into the dies. So I am thinking that would slow things down.

But I'm sure that's what jmoriss would tell ya that's what microswitches are for.

I have heard that buckshot is actually swaged too, but instead of a press and some dies, it uses two steel wheels that spin against each other. On the rims of these wheels, there are hemisphere shaped "holes" machined in them. The soft lead wire gets fed into the spinning wheels. The wheels are synched up so that the two hemispheres line up and pinch off double aught sized lead balls.

At least that is what I have heard.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Chills1994

[jmorris]

I think some of the bullet feeder or bullet collator manufacturers recommend against regular cast bullets because the rotating plate can get caught on the lube groove.

This is true but the MA systems and the copy I built work for them, they are factory on Magma Engineering’s auto lube/sizers, so they will feed even with an empty lube grove.

FWIW Back when rocks were soft, Precision bullets used to be cast and had (an empty) lube grove, at least the 230 rn.

[Chills1994]

PM sent, jmorris.

[AriM]

Oh...I dunno...economy of scale....

If you got the super duper high end automated equipment that could churn out thousands of bullets per hour, then all the more better.

I really couldn't imagine somebody who is in business taking a guillotine style hand operated cutter cutting 3/8" diameter lead wire to say 5/8" long to make the lead cores.

And then placing them in a press by hand one at a time and pushing down on a handle.

There is no way you could keep up.

The demand for bullets is still that high.

I could possibly see some equipment operator feeding a machine by hand, and either hitting two buttons or a foot pedal to activate the hydraul ram.

Somewhere here on this forum, jmorris has pictures of his homemade automated lubri-sizer.

I guess if you had a core collator and feeder rigged up with some micro switches, you might be able to cobble up something kinda automatic with a Corbin hydraulic swaging press.

The catch, though, is I do NOT know exactly how the Corbin hydro press gets the bullets to eject out of the dies. If they can get pushed right through the bottom like on a Star, that would make things simpler. But I suspect the finsihed swaged bullet has to come out the same way it went into the dies. So I am thinking that would slow things down.

But I'm sure that's what jmoriss would tell ya that's what microswitches are for.

I have heard that buckshot is actually swaged too, but instead of a press and some dies, it uses two steel wheels that spin against each other. On the rims of these wheels, there are hemisphere shaped "holes" machined in them. The soft lead wire gets fed into the spinning wheels. The wheels are synched up so that the two hemispheres line up and pinch off double aught sized lead balls.

At least that is what I have heard.

not sure if it's true, but I have heard that Precision is just a distributor....and that the cores are made elsewhere....but can't confirm that rumor....swaging in bulk I think would actually be easier than casting....as you said, rotary dies....look up the online tour for the Sierra bullet factory....it shows how they form cores and jackets from 80 pound lead ingots....all the way to a packaged product....

you are right though, any machine that you had to hand load would never be usable in a commercial setting....maybe only for custom low volume projectiles....

Since buckshot has to be "rounder" than simple bird shot....I would have to agree that casting (using the drip method) would be impossible for decent quality buckshot....

seems less and less possible for the average guy to get into commercial casting and make a profit...you would be working 24/7 just to make a fraction of a percentage on each order....

automation would become necessary, VERY quickly

[Chills1994]

Ya, know Ari... back in the day they used to sprinkle lead droplets from inside a shot tower, some 150 or so feet up. I think that there is some limit to how large a shot you can drop via that method...something about the surface tension of the lead creathing a somewhat perfect sphere while falling through the air...having enough surface tension to stay together.

You can cast buckshot. Lee makes a .311" round ball mould for it, but it is only double cavity, and would take forever to amass a quantity sufficient enough to start reloading shotgun shells.

I think the financial barriers to go whole hawg are pretty high.

You could try to start small, make a little money, and then kinda leap frog your way into bigger and better machines.

[AriM]

Ya, know Ari... back in the day they used to sprinkle lead droplets from inside a shot tower, some 150 or so feet up. I think that there is some limit to how large a shot you can drop via that method...something about the surface tension of the lead creathing a somewhat perfect sphere while falling through the air...having enough surface tension to stay together.

You can cast buckshot. Lee makes a .311" round ball mould for it, but it is only double cavity, and would take forever to amass a quantity sufficient enough to start reloading shotgun shells.

I think the financial barriers to go whole hawg are pretty high.

You could try to start small, make a little money, and then kinda leap frog your way into bigger and better machines.

yeah I could see methods for casting buckshot, but I doubt it would equal a ball up to today's standards, and my god it would be a painful and slow process....4 castings to fill one hull....LOL

The machinery doesn't seem so expensive....but the floorspace and shipping department...think about the weight that would be sitting on the warehouse floor....

i have a feeling the cost vs. profit would balance out quickly (6 months of production)....since the market is so hot right now....but I think trying to start up for under $30k is just going to drive you to an early grave (when would you not be pulling those handles or pouring lead?)....

tell you what, sell your house....and I'll sell my business, and we'll buy a warehouse with a train depot, and corner the lead market....

[Chills1994]

I think for what buckshot is meant to do or for what it was meant to do...I guess killing deer....you do NOT need a perfectly sperical piece of buckshot.

In fact, it could be postulated that having something out of round could better produce the effects you're after at say X distance.

Now, don't hold me to this, but a lot of buckshot is lead or nearly 100% dead soft lead. When a shotgun goes BANG!, all that inertia pushes the shot pellets all against either and to the back of the wad. So it is conceivable that shot produces flat spots when it is fired.

That could explain why some makers add a synthetic buffer material (little plastic beads) to the wad/shot cup.

And other manufactures will copper plate their shot and still add a buffering material.

Also, the wad keeps the individual pellets together for Y distance once it exits the muzzle.

That Federal Flite Control Wad is awesome.

Back, way back in the day, the old timers supposedly would melt lead in a can, pour it out into a flat pan. Once it cooled they would come back and score the lead with a razor blade in onde direction. Then score it again in the other direction. Then they would break it apart and make "cube shot" and load up their shells that way...and then go kill stuff to be able to put food on the table.

That's the story, anyway.