Minor Feeding problem - not 9mm 9x19

[Handgunnr]

After running a few hundred rounds of .38SA through my new Match, I decided to try 9x23. I've had very good success with this in my 1911's so I saw no reason why it shouldn't work in a Witness.

Anyway, the .38SA feeds and fires flawlessly out of both mags now, especially after break-in and taking some sharp burrs off the extractor that would dig into the brass right at the rim. The 9x23 is at least as accurate and feeds/fires perfectly....as long as the mag is downloaded to 14 or less. If over that #, the round nosedives into the feed ramp, especially hp's. It looks as if when over 14, there is no upward pressure on the front part of the case...the rounds below it are lying flat which allows the bullet to be pushed too low into the feed ramp as the top of the head is pushed into battery by the slide.

The external dims are obviously very close: same case length and oal, .38SA has a .406 head, .384 body with no taper; 9x23 has .394 head, .392 tapering to .381 body. Which dim do you think is causing the problem and why? Is there some other obvious reason I'm overlooking? I've never had this in a double or single stack 1911 so honestly have no clue where to begin troubleshooting the mags. It doesn't make much since to me but hoped one of you guys with more experience can give me some suggestions.

[Alan550]

The tapered case on the 9X23 is the difficulty, I'd guess. The 38SA, being a straight wall case with a larger rim diameter will stack in the mag differently from the 9X23. The accumulated difference over the 15 rounds will be substantial in how much pressure is on the case at the front of the mag. That .011" taper adds up to over 1/8" difference at that point between the front and rear of the case as it sits in the mag, with the nose down. Probably explains the nose-dive (6 o'clock) misfeed.

Alan~^~

[Handgunnr]

Dang Alan, I didn't consider the distance magnified over the multiple rounds, that's a "DUH" moment for me . That would explain why it doesn't happen with my single stacks (either 9 or 10 rounds), but I wonder why this doesn't happen with my STI and SV double stack mags?

I'll have to look at if there is a way to modify the Witness follower to push up on the front of the case more? I'll have to look at my STI/SV mags more closely tonight and see what the follower/feeding differences are between them and the Witness mags. I also wonder what the differences between the 9mm follower and .38SA are. The 9x19 is tapered the same amount (.391 to .380)...could this also be one of the reasons 9x19's aren't running well (besides the obvious oal issue with the large frame mags)?

Thanks Alan, I sincerely appreciate the input. That's certainly giving me something else to look at to find an answer.

Anyone else have any additional ideas?

[Handgunnr]

UPDATE: Well, I ran another 100 of mixed ammo through it today and discovered the 9x23 taper is not the problem. It simply won't feed hollowpoints of any .38SA that I have when the mag is loaded over 10...nose dives into feed ramp and hangs. Actually, the 9x23 hollowpoints feed better because I can load the mag to 14 and it runs smoother than the .38SA. Ogive and oal are the key here, from my eyes anyway. All my .38SA hp are shorter oal than the 9x23 hp and have larger, more open cavities. The extra long .38SA ball ammo I have runs great but it reeeaaallly fills the mag and the bullet has an extremely fat profile...there just isn't room for them to dive in the mag. Even then, I got it to hang by dropping the slide from open/locked position with a full mag two times.

Comparing to my SV/STI mags hand in hand with the EAA mags, it's obvious why they feed better. Even with the feedramp issue aside, I think it's an overall better design for the mag as I simply can't get these to fail however I load and or mix/match .38SA and 9x23. Of course, for $30 for an EAA mag vs. $60, they'd better be better.

Looks like I'll have to send it to a smith to get the ramp worked on or have them determine what's up that I can't. Still a great gun for the money...I'm sure whatever is ailing it with hp's can be fixed by a real smith and not just a hack like me with a dremel.

[Neomet]

Yeah, the Tanfos have no appetite for HPs or tapered cases. Both will normally result in feed issues.

[liontribe]

i have a limited in .45 for sale at the moment that has seen many hollowpoints with no bobbles at all. but my .38S is very picky about bullet shape.

liontribe

[Handgunnr]

i have a limited in .45 for sale at the moment that has seen many hollowpoints with no bobbles at all. but my .38S is very picky about bullet shape.

liontribe

After more shooting and tinkering, I'm pretty confident the feed ramp is contributing more to the problem than the mag or how the tapered case is being fed (simply because even the .38SA Hp's will not feed unless severely downloading the mag). I think it's the way they have the feed ramp cut: it seems as if it's very "deep and narrow" for a ramp. Typically on my 1911's, even in 9mm the ramp (as is the .45 ramp) is cut to fully take advantage of the entire width of the ramp. On the match, there's an "edge" down both sides that they could have used as part of the radius...no since losing real estate that could be put to use assisting chambering the round, but hey, I ain't Italian so I don't know what their reasoning was. That's where it's hanging, the outside edge on the right side. I'm tempted to dremel some...so far it's worked out for me in my projects but I've heard more than once the old adage "dremel should pay gunsmith's a finders fee".

[liontribe]

yes the dremel and i are old friends. of course, i make custom knives on the side so the dremel is pretty much a required class. i have not looked closely at my feedramp on the .38S. i will have to take a peek when i get home tonight. i am sure some of the more experienced among us here can advise on the feedramp issue.

liontribe