Handgunnr

9x23 works flawlessly in my .38S Match. Accuracy is actually better with it than .38S when using factory ammo.

I'm a huge fan of .38SA and 9x23WIN myself. There are 4 different .38SA guns in my safe that all run 9x23Win flawlessly (though my match took a bit of adjustment to the feedramp and a increased power recoil spring). I've got a pretty good stockpile of .38SA ball to plink with along with a very large supply of commercial .38SA and 9x23Win defensive ammo so I use the two interchangeably. And yes, commercial defense loads for 9mm don't reach the capabilities of .38SA and certainly not 9x23win. I feel quite comforted by a mag for full of 17rnds of 125gr winchester silvertips that will do approx 1450fps. I hope to eventually get a .22lr kit for my match but have hesitated because of the stories about how difficult it is to tune.

If you are near the Lothar/Walther facility here in GA, you may have some difficulty with that. According to my discussion with them, they just build the blank and then are shipped to Briley for the lug assembly etc. If you do happen find an in to get a complete barrel directly from them, let me know...I'd like one chambered in a non-stock caliber.

Yep, feel the same way about my Match...insanely accurate.

I'd buy one as I'd much prefer a more "positive" reset with my stock trigger.

Thanks Henning, just placed my order for the springs we spoke of and a few things I'd been holding out on trying to decide if I could buy them. 20% convinced me!

Oooooooohhhhh....that's dream candy right there! Sweet powder burner...nice photo composition too.

After more shooting and tinkering, I'm pretty confident the feed ramp is contributing more to the problem than the mag or how the tapered case is being fed (simply because even the .38SA Hp's will not feed unless severely downloading the mag). I think it's the way they have the feed ramp cut: it seems as if it's very "deep and narrow" for a ramp. Typically on my 1911's, even in 9mm the ramp (as is the .45 ramp) is cut to fully take advantage of the entire width of the ramp. On the match, there's an "edge" down both sides that they could have used as part of the radius...no since losing real estate that could be put to use assisting chambering the round, but hey, I ain't Italian so I don't know what their reasoning was. That's where it's hanging, the outside edge on the right side. I'm tempted to dremel some...so far it's worked out for me in my projects but I've heard more than once the old adage "dremel should pay gunsmith's a finders fee".

UPDATE: Well, I ran another 100 of mixed ammo through it today and discovered the 9x23 taper is not the problem. It simply won't feed hollowpoints of any .38SA that I have when the mag is loaded over 10...nose dives into feed ramp and hangs. Actually, the 9x23 hollowpoints feed better because I can load the mag to 14 and it runs smoother than the .38SA. Ogive and oal are the key here, from my eyes anyway. All my .38SA hp are shorter oal than the 9x23 hp and have larger, more open cavities. The extra long .38SA ball ammo I have runs great but it reeeaaallly fills the mag and the bullet has an extremely fat profile...there just isn't room for them to dive in the mag. Even then, I got it to hang by dropping the slide from open/locked position with a full mag two times. Comparing to my SV/STI mags hand in hand with the EAA mags, it's obvious why they feed better. Even with the feedramp issue aside, I think it's an overall better design for the mag as I simply can't get these to fail however I load and or mix/match .38SA and 9x23. Of course, for $30 for an EAA mag vs. $60, they'd better be better. Looks like I'll have to send it to a smith to get the ramp worked on or have them determine what's up that I can't. Still a great gun for the money...I'm sure whatever is ailing it with hp's can be fixed by a real smith and not just a hack like me with a dremel.

Dang Alan, I didn't consider the distance magnified over the multiple rounds, that's a "DUH" moment for me . That would explain why it doesn't happen with my single stacks (either 9 or 10 rounds), but I wonder why this doesn't happen with my STI and SV double stack mags? I'll have to look at if there is a way to modify the Witness follower to push up on the front of the case more? I'll have to look at my STI/SV mags more closely tonight and see what the follower/feeding differences are between them and the Witness mags. I also wonder what the differences between the 9mm follower and .38SA are. The 9x19 is tapered the same amount (.391 to .380)...could this also be one of the reasons 9x19's aren't running well (besides the obvious oal issue with the large frame mags)? Thanks Alan, I sincerely appreciate the input. That's certainly giving me something else to look at to find an answer. Anyone else have any additional ideas?

After running a few hundred rounds of .38SA through my new Match, I decided to try 9x23. I've had very good success with this in my 1911's so I saw no reason why it shouldn't work in a Witness. Anyway, the .38SA feeds and fires flawlessly out of both mags now, especially after break-in and taking some sharp burrs off the extractor that would dig into the brass right at the rim. The 9x23 is at least as accurate and feeds/fires perfectly....as long as the mag is downloaded to 14 or less. If over that #, the round nosedives into the feed ramp, especially hp's. It looks as if when over 14, there is no upward pressure on the front part of the case...the rounds below it are lying flat which allows the bullet to be pushed too low into the feed ramp as the top of the head is pushed into battery by the slide. The external dims are obviously very close: same case length and oal, .38SA has a .406 head, .384 body with no taper; 9x23 has .394 head, .392 tapering to .381 body. Which dim do you think is causing the problem and why? Is there some other obvious reason I'm overlooking? I've never had this in a double or single stack 1911 so honestly have no clue where to begin troubleshooting the mags. It doesn't make much since to me but hoped one of you guys with more experience can give me some suggestions.

For you guys that have already installed one of Henning's new flat trigger, would you mind posting some pics?

I can't speak for my Witness as I just got my first, but after owning too many production and custom 1911's to count, I have gravitated away from checkering. I agree that nothing looks as good as a great checkering job; the skill and artistry it takes to do one is something to be admired and appreciated. From what I can see of your photo, the lines are perfect. To me though, checkering is second at best when it comes to "grippy-ness". For my guns, in my hands, I've found an aggressive stippling to be far superior and a good grip tape to still be better for me than any checkering. Your mileage may vary, but it's no comparison for me. Maybe checkering is not as popular because of the expense involved? Or maybe it's competition shooters like to tinker and checkering is too "permanent"?

Loko, I just went through this putting my new Match back together after stripping it completely to polish the parts. I am not sure if your gun uses the same roll pin as the Match or not. But in case it does, here's what I learned: There were two things difficult in putting it back together. The first was the trigger plunger that both holds the mag release in and pushes on the underneath of the trigger stirrup. To get the plunger back into place, you have to put the mag release in place and then push the pin on the spring in with a pin punch (through the hole on the right side of the mag release). While holding the pin in, push down on the plunger and sloooowly pull the pin punch out. It may take a few tries for it to catch but eventually, the trigger plunger will be captured by the spring/pin in the mag release and hold them both in place. Second, and hardest for me, was the trigger return spring. What I finally ended up doing was using a small finishing nail that I cut to exact fit, tapering the end so it would slide out the frame easy. The short leg of the spring goes between the trigger stirrup and the trigger itself. You will have to pull up on the longer leg to get the smaller leg to fit all the way into it's little pocket (on the right of where the stirrup attaches to the trigger. I used the little finishing nail as a slave pin to hold the spring in place, it was cut perfectly flush on both sides of the trigger so as not interfere with the trigger going back in the frame. Holding the frame in my left hand, and with the trigger stirrup in the right place, trigger in the frame, I used my left thumb to push down on the trigger to align the holes. You have to hold it there, just right while tapping in the actual trigger roll pin through. I had the roll pin adjusted on the right side of the frame to just flush with the inside of the frame. Holding the left side of the frame down, to facilitate the slave finishing nail pin exiting the frame, I tapped the roll pin through. Went slick as grease after I messed it up 5 times and kind of buggered up the spring in the process where the roll pin caught it one time going through. I ordered spares from Henning yesterday. Hope that helps.

I finally found the previous generation Match (without the accessory rail) in .38SA and jumped on it. NIB, this gun was an excellent deal for $500 shipped. I immediately stripped both frame and slide completely (Henning, your videos were invaluable) and cleaned it , replacing the factory lube with my own preferred brands. I ran about 50 rounds through it on Wed eve here at my farm and it performed very well. Only 3 failures to return to battery: a tiny twek of the mag and I think that's fixed. I may also bump up the recoil spring just to see (anyone know what the stock .38SA is?). I'm sure break-in was an issue too. I stripped the gun down again and polished the trigger stirrup bars, the entire trigger plunger assembly and associated contact points as Henning suggested in his video. Definitely helped the trigger. I also filed flat the pre-travel screw which came cut at an angle and was very quickly digging into the frame. Also very inconsistent on adjustment because of the uneven contact. While the trigger is no custom 1911, it's certainly better than any other new production auto I've had in my hands with the bit of tweaking I did. I'm sure I'll eventually send it for EGW parts and a professional installation, but for now, a very nice gun for $500 and a couple hours tinkering. However, getting that danged trigger return spring back into place ate my lunch! Finally figured out how to get it back in but I'm going to have to order a new one from "what I learned" on this one . My only point of concern is I had to bring the cheezy "Novak copy" adjustable sights almost to their upper limit to hit poa. I'd love to get one of Hennig's fiber fronts but I doubt I could compensate with any more rear sight travel. I want to eventually change it out with an XS adjustable rear and front tritium/big dot, but the cost of the work to the slide and the sights themselves it out of the budget right now. I'll probably do all that at the same time I have Canyon Creek do the EGW and slide lightening. This is my first EAA so there are a few things to get used to: lack of a grip safety and slide doesn't lock with the safety. No biggie, just operational habit. For now, very happy with the value for the dollar for function/fit/finish. I don't expect it to function flawlessly until after a couple hundred rounds, but I shot a mag this morning and it ran like a champ. Best of all, and way over my expectations, this is absolutely the most accurate semi-auto (barring my S&W 41) I've had in my hands. It shot at least as well as my custom 1911's and if I were to be honest with myself, probably better. Wearing the perma-grin over this. Best 5 at a 1" dot (top right was 1st shot, then readjusted grip) of fiocchi 129 fmj factory ammo @ 10 yards supported (gun arm against a post of my barn): The remaining 12 in the mag (flyer was again 1st shot) as I walked the sights @ 20 supported: I'll never be able to shoot to this gun's capabilities off-hand. No need to change the barrel/lockup etc. as I had intended. Just a superbly accurate gun for marginal sights and very little time with it in my hand. So now, Henning's grips, a new trigger return spring (and an extra), some misc pins/springs for spare parts (this thing has some small stuff!) and I think I'll be good to go for a couple thousand rounds. Thanks for all the info you guys share on here, and especially to Henning for his time on the phone and informative website. This is going to be a fun platform to tinker with!

I will defer to Leo's obvious expertise. If overall weight wasn't an issue, I'm sure this would be true.

I know it was substantially heavier than the standard match...so much so that I've spent the last 2 months looking for the older style without the rail. Just found n.i.b. one in .38SA last week that should be here on Tuesday. It's already a pretty heavy gun, but boy the one with the rail was just too heavy for me to put on my hip under any circumstances when it's got a mag full. Holsters may be hard to find for a while too.

Henning, do you have pics and pricing of the new trigger yet?

Jordan, for lots of reasons I like .38SA. I don't compete formally, I don't have the time or the reloading equipment anymore. However I visit a friend not to far away once a week or so where we have a shoot house built and it's a super adrenaline rush to run through it hot. In these high intensity environments and even just plinking for the pure fun of it, I've found that as much as I love .45ACP, I shoot .38SA/9x23 much better. I'm not recoil sensitive but my A hits are at least 10-15% higher in my commanders when compared to full power .45ACP (not quite that in full size guns). In your competitions (not to mention more serious situations) would you choose a caliber that gave you that much improvement? I also don't feel undergunned with this caliber in any realistic situation. I also have multiple thousand rounds of .38SA and 9x23. If I shot in all the competitions you guys do, I'm confident I would choose something that is more currently competitive (it looks like most lean towards .40). But I don't, so the super is my choice. Besides, I like something "different"...hence my attempt at putting together a gun I haven't seen before. Mike, I'm certainly no expert but I believe the large frame guns in 9mm will also accept the .38sa mags without modifications...just as they would .45ACP, .40/10mm and be perfectly functional with an upper change. Other than minor tweaking of each mag, why would I have trouble getting mags to work? These would be factory mags and from what I've read, seem to be pretty reliable. Is there something inherent in the .38SA mags that make them problematic? I talked to EAA yesterday and they will not import the Tanfoglio Stock II in .38SA (one is available according to the Tanfoglio website) nor would they import it's cone bbl for me to use in a 9mm gun. Jordan, you are spot on there about the Limited I hadn't thought of that until you posted. I tried to find out if the Limited bbl would work cut down but they shot that down immediately (though wouldn't tell me why other than "no"). Although the young lady that answered the phone was pleasant and tried to get me answers from someone more knowledgeable (she said she had only been there a couple of weeks), the "relayed" answers to my questions were abrupt to say the least. I never actually got to talk to anyone who really knew what I was asking. I understand now what many have said about customer no-service. I'm left with finding a Stock II in 9mm and adding a cone to a standard .38SA barrel or just sticking with the Match in .38SA. I would have done that already but can't find any in that caliber so it looks like I'll be getting one in .45ACP and then just buying a separate upper in .38SA. It was worth a try anyway.

Henning, will these be available for the Match? I would assume they would be a bit different since I believe I read one of your posts somewhere that they don't use the same pin as the other guns?

Mike, I want to do this because Tanfoglio, in their infinite wisdom, chooses to offer some but not all of their models in .38SA. I want a stock 2 in .38sa...but no such animal exists. Since they don't offer the barrel for this gun in .38SA (at least that I could find) my thought was to get one in 9x19 and rechamber. Sadly, Rich of canyon creed advised me of it's financial impracticality in a polygonal barrel. I may be doing the Match after all because it will cost too much to do what I want to do with a stock 2. I'm certainly open to suggestions if you have a better idea of how to get the end result I want. Not sure why there would be magazine issues with the large frame. .38sa mags fit in the current large frame just like the 9x19 mags don't they? Are you possibly talking about magazine problems with the .38sa rim in general? I've had pretty good luck tuning those in 1911's (both ss and sv/sti). My ultimate goal is to have one that will feed both .38sa and 9x23 (which feeds like a champ in everything I've ever run it through) out of the same barrel if possible. I've done this on numerous 1911's, just trying to reproduce it with similar results in the Witness platform. Thanks Jordan. I can't get anyone to give me a straight answer on if the Limited's cone barrel is the same as the Stock2 and all I would need to do is cut/recrown the barrel for the shorter slide. Any ideas if that would work?

Has anyone had experience converting a 9mm Witness to either .38sa or 9x23 Win without swapping the slide? From experience I know Caspian makes a 9/38 slide that you could build either on a 1911 but have no clue if it would be a lot of hassle on a 9mm EAA. Reaming, mags, slight extractor tune, different recoil spring would be expected but I have no Witness slides to compare measurements. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

Point taken Brit...I incorrectly assumed someone might know the frame differences off the top of their head. Any input on: "Is there a reason why some of the Witness models use cone/bull bbl lockup and others do not? I've preferred the bull barrel for a while now but am also a believer you can get at least as good accuracy with a bushing too (I've got both types of 1911's and my C&S Hi-Power uses a bushing). I'm curious why one manufacturer would not use all cone/bull or all straight...and why no bushing on any of them? Forgive my ignorance here, I'm long time 1911 snob who's bought and sold my fair share of guns that all fell short of Browning's design imho. Again, I'm leaning towards the Match for numerous reasons but wonder if I'd be better off 1) starting with a model with a cone/bull or 2) adding a bushing or cone/bull to the match."

So 40+ views and no one with any input?

Lurking here for a while trying to learn more about the EAA platform for starting at least one, and now that I'm getting hooked on these guns, maybe more new builds. Thanks for all the great info and advice ya'll so freely share. Forgive my ignorance as some of these questions may seem to have obvious answers. I've looked at the pics over and over but without having access to the different frames in my hands at the same time (no one locally has any EAA in stock), I can't figure out some very minor/basic differences between them. Is checkering on the frame for all the square trigger guard guns "raised" or "cut"? Meaning, is the smallest depth of the grip on these less than the frame of the match which doesn't have the checkering? I'm used to 1911 SS and STI/SV platforms but I find the smaller grips more comfortable to my hands. I really like the price of the Matches I've found on line and am leaning this direction but I would move up to the square trigger guard frames if they would be smaller after grinding off the checkering. I'm not a fan of the square trigger guard, but my goal is to get the grip as small as possible and either hand stipple or cut minor inlays for grip tape within the frame and Henning's grips. Are the square guard and round guard elite frames the same material/quality? I've read contrary opinions back and forth between using caliber conversion kits on the "elite series" frames. Some have said this is not the case but I would assume, with smithing, I could simply fit a more compact slide to the match I intend to buy for a bit more portability. I'm not a big guy and I find my Commanders are about the upper size limit of what I can effectively carry discretely in my average climate but I also spend a lot of time with a gun on my hip open carry in my rural area. It would be nice to have the match slide or compact slide as I wish. The availability of the conversion kits and variety of the choices are one of my motivations of this platform. That coupled with what seems to be an exceptional value for the dollar all around. Is there a reason why some of the Witness models use cone/bull bbl lockup and others do not? I've preferred the bull barrel for a while now but am also a believer you can get at least as good accuracy with a bushing too (I've got both types of 1911's and my C&S Hi-Power uses a bushing). I'm curious why one manufacturer would not use all cone/bull or all straight...and why no bushing on any of them? Forgive my ignorance here, I'm long time 1911 snob who's bought and sold my fair share of guns that all fell short of Browning's design imho. Again, I'm leaning towards the Match for numerous reasons but wonder if I'd be better off 1) starting with a model with a cone/bull or 2) adding a bushing or cone/bull to the match. So far, unless I learn something otherwise in the next week or so, my plan is to buy a Match in .38S that I've found a deal on, put in Henning's firing pin, reduced hammer spring, and thin grips, strip and polish trigger bow misc parts etc. (no hammer/sear change yet) for a bit better trigger. Shoot the snot out of it for a couple of weeks to make sure I want to continue to put money in it as I have planned. Next up would be to have Canyon Creek install EGW sear/hammer parts, put on a set of XS adjustable big dot sights and if necessary a better barrel and or lockup to enhance accuracy and longevity of the accuracy. After seeing the pics of Rich's and JoshF's on the slide cuts/lightening, I know I'll have to do some of that trick stuff too. Thanks for your input...