Ipsc Production - Triggers & Mags

[Vince Pinto]

Bucky,

Thanks for clarifying your views.

Redmercury,

OK, who the hell's been telling you stories about my fishing gauge? Despite what my friends may tell you, individual anchovy can weight 12lbs. Honestly

[slavex]

ok so is polishing my sear and hammer, and back of the trigger bar on my Beretta allowed or not? all that is being done is that burs, and rough contact areas are being smoothed over.

[Vince Pinto]

Rob,

Good question and I hope this is a good answer. The current rule says:

20. Polishing and/or detailing of components available from the original manufacturer for the approved handgun are permitted.

-:however in the new (January 2004 Edition) IPSC rulebook, the word "polishing" has been removed and the relevant (renumbered) rules say:

19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

19.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing, are prohibited.

You might be interested to know that it was Doug Lewis (IPSC Canada) who advised us to drop the word "polishing" because he tells us that, to a metal worker, "polishing" means removing much more than just the burrs.

Anyway, the bottom line is, yes, you may remove burrs but you may not "grind" the part down to make it considerably thinner. Of course it's unlikely that anybody will have a micrometer at the chrono area to measure how much metal you've removed, but the trigger pull test will probably serve to keep everyone honest.

[slavex]

see this is where problems are gonna start and it's going to be hard to keep people honest. are we going to see people pulling hammers and sears and comparing them to a box stock factory one? if someone is really talented, they can alter the face of a sear and change the engagement surface enough to make the SA trigger totally different from factory, and really improve the initial DA pull, but at the same time, I've owned and played with other pistols the same as mine where the trigger, from the factory, was as good as, or better than some that had been worked on. It all depends on who fitted the gun at the factory, if the machines that cut angles were using new tooling etc etc etc. So many variables, and depending on the mood of the person testing the gun, or the phase the moon is in, it's going to be a mess at a big match. Is there really any way to keep people honest? I don't think so, at least not without having to take steps that would make it impossible to run a match effectively.

groan............. I wonder if this will ever get sorted out properly?

[Radagast]

Slavex, you beat me to it.

Vince I concur with Slavex, polishing and detailing is subjective in the mind of the beholder.

If I replace my Beretta that JWH has so kindly bought from me and have Langdon Tactical Technology supply me with a trigger job in a bag, those parts may or may not be legal, depending on how detailed they are. If I take them to the Beretta Australia gunsmith (who was the gunsmith for the Aussie olympic team and I believe the Russians before that) and have him duplicate the level of detailing on those parts and install them, I will have a 'get out of jail free' card, as long as he can do it for anyone else willing to pay the OEM tarrif.

Stupid.

I know I'm going to kiss any chance of IROA status away here, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is a Production gun as far as I am concerned.

As for the 'official' trigger gauge, don't worry about it. I've got a Lyman electronic gauge. If it reads 1 ounce below 5 pounds I'll just jiggle it a bit to let the shooter pass. If it read 4.5 pounds he flunks.

When all they are competing for is a plastic trophy worth five bucks, I'm not going to get too picky. I guess at the world shoot level it's a different story. As Slavex and I plan to meet there, we would obviously like to be kept up todate on any level 4 DQs that occur as a result of the new rules so we can keep our detailing within the rules.

I'll see you at the Canberra Nats.

Ken

[Vince Pinto]

Ken,

Firstly your opinions on IPSC rules have no bearing whatsoever on any application to join (or remain a member of) IROA. You're entitled to your opinion, just like everybody else, but if you believe a rule needs to be changed, by all means campaign for it to be changed. However, as an IROA official, you're expected to enforce the rules fairly and impartially, by the book, whether you agree with those rules or not, while those rules remain current.

Secondly, taking a Langdon "trigger job in a bag" to a gunsmith (Beretta or otherwise) and modifying a standard Beretta 92FS is illegal under IPSC Production Division rules and it's tantamount to cheating. Of course I know that you, like me, would never want to risk being caught cheating, inadvertently or otherwise, and forever after being labelled with such a damning and shameful stigma. On the other hand, if Beretta offer a "Langdon 92FS" and if that model appears on the approved gun list, knock yourself (and your wallet) out.

And, as far as jiggling your trigger pull gauge is concerned, the trigger pull test allows for three attempts, because we're not after the guy who is borderline - we're after the guy who installs, say, a Glock "minus" connector and tries to get away with a 3.5lb trigger pull.

Moreover, the fact that a guy may be competing for a $5 trophy is irrelevant to my enforcement of the rules. You see, while winning a piddly little trophy does indeed mean zip, if winning the related title gives that guy a better chance of making the grade for selection for the Australian Gold Team to the World Shoot, then there's obviously much more at stake, so I enforce all the rules, all the time, whether it's a club shoot or a State or Regional championship.

Finally, I've not heard of any DQs at major matches for Unsportsmanlike Conduct yet, but there are dozens of cases of guys being relegated to Open Division for failing to comply with the requirements of Production Division.

See you in Canberra - I'll be the guy with the dark glasses, white cane and labrador running Stage 10

[Vince Pinto]

Ken,

One more thing. While I acknowledge that identification and penalizing of illegal modifications to Production Division guns is no mean task, I consider the whole concept of PD rule enforcement to be similar to DUI laws.

A person may get away with DUI for a while, but eventually he'll get caught, and his "record" can never be expunged. In IPSC, the first occurrence of illegal modifications may only result in relegation to Open Division, but subsequent offences will incur a far more serious (and shameful) penalty.

And in sporting communities such as ours which are relatively small, combined with the phenomenal speed in which information is disseminated through the Internet, I'd hate to be the first guy caught with his pants down a second time.

Without going into details, some people today still bring up "infractions" which occurred at WSXI in Brazil in 1996.

[Flexmoney]

by all means campaign for it to be changed.

Vince, what is the process invloved. Is there an official form that can be filled out? And, is there a policy to ensure that the proposal will be considered and responded too? Or, do we just wing it...and hope it gets brought up before the board?

If not...that might be my first campaign.

[Detlef]

Flex,

the best way for us to lobby for change and harmonization with IPSC is through our Regional Director, Mike Voigt. Send him e-mail or letter (that's what I am going to do after all this non-convergent discussion), and he could take the matter to the Prod Div committee if enough of us express, kindly but forcefully, their *case for change*. Needless to say, Mike probably has little leverage unless he hints that USPSA would be willing to take over IPSC's such *new and improved* Prod Div rules...

--Detlef

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Detlef is correct that the proper procedure to campaign for a rule or policy change is to contact your Regional Director and, in the case of USPSA members, that is indeed Mike Voigt, who conveniently also happens to be Overall Chairman of the IPSC Rules Committee.

Having said that, I'm specifically Chairman of the IPSC Handgun Rules Committee and if an error, oversight, discrepency or ambiguity is brought to my attention, I'll automatically add it to my "To Do" list which, sadly, never closes. In other words, if a rule or policy is not clearly stated, then I'm your man.

On the other hand, if you disagree with a rule or policy (e.g. scoring a maximum of 2 hits on each Penalty Target or limiting Production Division guns to a maximum 5" barrel length etc.), I'll certainly try my best to explain the reasoning behind it, but I can't help you change the rule or policy, and you must go through your Regional Director.

[Radagast]

Vince, I should have put more smileys in. Or you haven't switched to decaf.

On the trigger pull yah, I forgot about the three trys bit.

On the cheating bit. I don't. End of story. However, the bit about a Langdon trigger job in a bag is still relevant. If the Beretta Australia gunsmith does custom trigger work on a Beretta invoice, available to the general public, and I provide him with a set of parts to copy (these are polished factory parts) which he does on Beretta stock, and then installs them in my gun, billing me through Beretta, and providing a price list on Beretta letterhead stating what it will cost the average Joe to have the same work done, I cannot see how this would be illegal under production rules, as it would be the same as having the performance shop at S&W do some work, but it would still be a custom trigger job. In other words a non production production gun. Correct me if I am wrong in this.

I just think it's another bag of worms being opened here. I'll certainly play within the rules, but unfareness has been allowed to enter in, factory sponsored shooters or shooters in the know will have access to recontoured sears hammers, etc. The average joe will not.

As to being in contention for IROA, that was a throw away line, should of kept my fingers off the keyboard.

If team selection is being contected in any way, I will hold firm and fast to the rules. At the NSW State titles I made it clear that I was bringing a bunch of stock parts for comparison, and warned those people I knew to have aftermarket bits that they needed to shoot standard or put the factory bits back in.

At a level II to celebrate the end of the hi-cap era, Herman the German drove from Adelaide to Hume to join in. Halfway through the shoot I realised he was shooting with a Hogue grip. As all of his fellow glock shooters had Heinie sights and 3.5 pound connectors ( they do break nicely at 5 pounds 1 ounce) while his were stock, he gained no competitive advantage. I told him it wasn't production legal and not to bring it to the Nationals 'cause vince the Bogeyman would spank him'. It wasn't worth causing him any grief on what was supposed to be a fun day. For that matter the 56 round stage with 150 metres of running wasn't exactly legal either. (Brodie won by 4 seconds even after falling over and sliding on his knees for 10 metres while still engaging 4 targets as he slid past).

I've gotten a few people to be compliant simply by pointing out that their gun wasn't and asking them to rectify it before the next shoot. I don't like discouraging newbies. The government over here does that for us.

Ken

[Vince Pinto]

Ken,

I still love you like a brother, and I know you would never cheat. I also know you're playing "Devil's Advocate" and, honestly, I really appreciate such mental challenges before I've had a high octane double espresso

My answer to your "Langdon" question depends on whether the "Langdon Beretta" is only available as a complete gun from the factory or whether the "Langdon" bits are also offered by the factory as an option which can be retrofitted to a bog standard Beretta 92FS.

If the factory only offers the "Langdon Beretta" as a complete gun, then retrofitting a bog standard 92FS with those parts is an illegal modification. Moreover, since Beretta do not manufacture guns in Australia, the "Beretta gunsmith" has as much to do with producing factory guns as I do as a certified Glock armourer fiddling about with the innards of my trusty G21.

Of course I've heard a number of allegations about factory sponsored competitors having guns with "special innards", which are reputedly only available to the chosen few, but I've yet to see any hard evidence. Having said that, our rules provide for the RM to order that any competitor's gun be examined, and that's the IPSC equivalent of the DUI "blow in the bag".

If push comes to shove, we can always require that the Top 8 competitors submit their guns for detailed inspection before their match placing is confirmed, much like the way winning jockeys are weighed after horse races or Olympians have to pee in a cup. I hope it never comes to that, but it's always available.

Will some guys get away with cheating on their gun mods? Probably, but I'm fairly sure there are also a handful of guys who pass chrono at Major then later switch to ammo which only makes Captain (or possibly Lieutenant)

Finally, I don't think keeping people honest is discouraging - it's educational. The biggest PITA competitors I've ever encountered are the ones who finally get to a big match and, after they get pinged, they say "But nobody objects when I do that at home".

[Flexmoney]

Or...you could adopt USPSA's trigger and sight rules for Production, and be done with the worries.

[Radagast]

Actually Vince, Beretta do offer a trigger job service in the USA where they manufacture, and it is a wholly owned subsidary of Beretta Italy. The customer purchases the gun at retail and then returns it to them for a bit of magic. That's where Langdon learnt his trade. Beretta Australia is also a wholly owned subsidary of Beretta Italy. I'd be willing to put my $100 on the table to contest that a trigger job offered by the Australian Bretta armourer would be legal.

David Olhasso said: 1) Is a trigger job done by the factory "performance department" legal? Obviousily any replacement parts will be factory provided parts but those parts would probably be polished and detailed.

You said: 1) Yes, provided the OFM offers that gun (or component) as an option for the particular gun which is on the approved gun list and provided that gun (or component) is available to the general public. Hence protoypes are not permitted, and this is decided by the Production Division Committee. Hence a S&W Performance Centre Model X is permitted, provided that gun is on the approved gun list (btw, as far as I know, "performance centre" guns are never just "trigger jobs" - they're invariably offered with a number of refinements).

I'm not talking about Langdon's speedbump, just of factory parts hand finished by a factory employee and 'detailed and polished' under the old rules to give better hammer ands sear engagement.

In the interest of fairness an aftermarket factory trigger job shouldn't be legal if it goes beyond detailing the parts in the approved gun unless any factory approved armourer can do it as well.

I can accept that a specific 'performance centre' model supplied with a trigger job from the factory to the retail market, and approved by the Production pistol approval committee would be acceptable.

Tis argument applies to any manufacturer, I'm just using Beretta as an example because we've argued the case before and I have my facts kind of straight.

just to make things harder, a Beretta that's had 5 or 6 thousand rounds through it will have smoothed out to roughly the same as a trigger job, and the same working surfaces will be shiny, just like my glock with 15000 rounds through it has a much smoother trigger than an out of the box gun. Polishing that doesn't change engagement surfaces and only smooths them will simply emulate normal wear and make catching the cheats that much harder.

I'm mainly interested in your view on aftermarket factory triggers jobs, the rest is my normal rambling.

For that matter, would nonfactory trigger work that smooths a surface but does not change engagement surface angles, such as Langdon does with his level 1 trigger job, or the average home gunsmith with jewellers rouge and an emery board attempts to do be Production legal as 'detailing' even if it creates a shiny surface, or would it be polishing because it has polished a surface even though no depth of metal has been removed?

Ken

PS: For those readers not familiar with the IPSC Australia forum, "I love you like a brother" translates as "you are giving me another migraine."

PPS Vince, I've been a member here for quite a while, but I've refrained from posting cause it's rude to be a loudmouth in someone elses home. But when you started flogging my favourite dead horse I had to join in.

[slavex]

I too realize that any special parts like Ernests Speedbump trigger are a huge no no, but this "Polishing" thing has got me flumuxed (sp) (hell is it even a word?). As Ken states thousands of rounds fired will produce much the same effect as me taking 600 or 800 grit paper to my hammer and sear and making them baby ass smooth, with just the perfect amount of engagement. is this legal? that's where the question seems to stand now. what can we do to our guns, or more specifically what can't we do when it comes to smoothing things out? If I remove the rough spots on my trigger bar is that allowed? etc etc.

ieeee what a can o worms.

[Vince Pinto]

Ken,

I don't know how many different ways I can say this but, as Paul Anka once said, "Let me try again"

1) Factory options for a gun on the approved gun list are legal for IPSC PD provided they are not specifically excluded. This means, for example, that "+2" baseplates and the like, factory or otherwise, are illegal.

2) Aftermarket options for a gun on the approved gun list are illegal for IPSC PD, except for sights and magazines, where some leeway is given, and I think you understand the limitations.

3) Minor detailing of a gun on the approved gun list where (as you say) "trigger work that smooths a surface but does not change engagement surface angles" and where "no depth of metal has been removed" is legal, regardless of whether you, Langdon or another party performs it.

If we avoid the word "polishing", I think the best terms to use would be "make shiny, permitted" but "grinding, prohibited".

Slavex,

Yes, removing rough spots on your trigger bar is OK, and I think the best way to describe the demarcation line is "removing excess metal, permitted" but "removing base metal, prohibited".

Are we there yet? I really gotta go pee ...................

[slavex]

thanks Vince, I must have glossed over it if you previously explained that all (sometimes speed reading is not a good thing eh?)

I never noticed the "changing engagement angles" bit before either, so that's good to see it in there.

[Radagast]

Rob, I think Vince was refering to a thread on the Aussie forum. It went on for weeks.

Changing engagement surfaces was my take on it, working from a line in one of your posts. I wanted to get the definition of unacceptable 'detailing' a bit more defined, so I suggested that.

Vince, two more questions.

1) Is a factory option that is only available after the purchase of the original firearm, but for that firearm model, such as a Beretta trigger job, S&W action tune, colt custom engraving or a reblue from just about any manufacturer still production legal, or does the option have to be fitted before the gun leaves the factory.

If legal to have done after the original purchase,

2) Does the work have to be done at the original factory or can it be done at an authorised repair or service centre. EG: Would a S&W reblue be legal cause they make them there, but a reblue by Grycol here in OZ (authorised service/warranty centre for Australia/New Zealand) be illegal? Would it be legal for Beretta USA to work on a gun made in the USA but illegal to work on a gun made in Italy?

TIA

Ken

[Vince Pinto]

Ken,

The rules don't place a time limit on factory options so, yes, if you purchased a Model X gun in January and the OFM subsequently offers a new option for that very same gun in December, a retrofit would be legal under IPSC PD rules. The test question is "Is the part or component offered by the OFM an option for the particular gun which is on the approved gun list?".

If the answer is yes, the answer is yes!

For example, my Glocks are all a few years old, but last year Glock introduced a new "chamber loaded indicator" extractor which is standard on all new model Glocks but it's also offered by Glock as an option on earlier model guns, so adding an "updated" extractor to my Glocks would be PD legal. A few years back, Glock also redesigned their trigger bar assemblies, for reliability reasons, and installation of one of those "updated" components would also be legal.

The rules also don't restrict who is allowed to effect authorised modifications - the rules only state which changes are allowed or not. For example, Glock offer two different types of "New York Trigger Springs" as an option on all model Glocks, so installation of one would be legal regardless of who installs it.

The key is whether or not the part or component is offered by the OFM an option for the particular gun which is on the approved gun list.

And you've now exceeded your quota of questions for 2003 ............ NEXT CUSTOMER PLEASE

[Radagast]

Hold still little butterfly, I've got one more pin.

If Glock didn't fit the loaded chamber indicator as standard on current guns, but sold it as an aftermarket spare for old and current guns, that a glock armourer could then, with the factories blessing install, would it still be considered a factory option?

Yes or no, and I'll crawl back into my cave dragging my polymer club behind me.

Ken

[Vince Pinto]

Ken,

Parts or components offered by Glock are not aftermarket - see our January 2004 Edition IPSC rulebook glossary definition, which says:

Aftermarket: Items manufactured by a party other than the OFM.

and, as I mentioned in my previous post: "The rules also don't restrict who is allowed to effect authorised modifications - the rules only state which changes are allowed or not".

Can I go see my therapist now?

[Radagast]

Yep.

For the record.

Polishing factory components so they are bright and shiny, but not to the point of changing engagement surface angle or so that metal is removed is OK if done by anyone.

Modifying magazines (regardless of manufacturer) including restricting factory full caps to 10 rounds is not legal. (Looks like I should have turned in all of my pinned beretta mags).

Painting your sights with any color other than the original color or sight black is not OK.

Fibreoptics are not OK unless fibreoptics are offered as a factory option on an approved Production gun.

Sights can be changed for sights of a type that are offered by the OEM. Ie: Adjustables, fixed and tritium post and notch are the norm. If the OEM only allows post and notch, Ghost rings are out. The sights don't have to be exact copies, they can have have different materials, notch depth, post height etc.

Modified (recontoured/relieved/changed engagement surfaces) trigger components are legit if the service is offered by the OEM to any shooter for an approved model. A repair/service/warranty station that is authorised to do such work can do such work and it would still be production legal, as long as it's available to the peanut gallery (moi included) and not just to the factory sponsored GrandMaster.

Having your independant gunsmith modify (remove metal/recontour/cut springs/ or change engagement services to match the factory/service station/warranty & repair centre version is not allowed. Having him install worked over parts supplied by the F/SS/W&R Centre is (disclaimer above still applies).

Having an independant gunsmith modify parts as above and then have a F/SS/W&R Centre gunsmith install them is not ok, unless the factory starts buying them in and offering them as an option to everyone.

Components sold by the OEM for use on a particular approved model are considered to be factory options, even if not available fitted by the factory.

Factory grips can be replaced with non factory grips as long as they are of the same shape. Different materials and texturing are allowed. Stippling of factory grips is not allowed, but if a custom gunsmith was to remanufacture the grips then it would be allowed. Example: Burner textured grips from Langdon in the USA, stippled and recoloured grips from Novak's handgunner outlet.

Grip tape is allowed, as long as it dosn't disable a grip safety.

Hogue handalls are out.

Recheckering, bevelling of mag wells etc is out.

Refinishing must be done by a F/SS/W&R Centre, not with a can of cold blue in the back shed. Refinishing must be in an original finish or a factory optional finish.

Have I missed anything or got anything wrong?

Ken

[Vince Pinto]

Ken,

You score 98 out of 100. The only statements you've made which I would improve are:

++ Modifying OFM magazines (regardless of manufacturer) including restricting factory full caps to 10 rounds is not legal.

++ Components sold by the OEM for use on a particular approved model are considered to be factory options, even if not available until after the original gun purchase.

On that note, I think this thread has run it's course (and then some), so I'm locking it before it gets to the stage where I have to take out a second mortgage to pay my therapist.

Doctor Rrrrruthhhhhhhhhh, I'm cominggggggggg .........