Dawson Adjustables

[spook]

I did some searching around in this Glock forum, but no luck yet.

IPSC (not USPSA) changed the rules a little. The old rules said that you could change the sights on your production gun as long as you didn't mill the slide and as long as the manufacturer sold the gun with those sights on it from the factory.

Now the rule changed to: You can put any sight on that doesn't require alterations to the slide, as long as the manufacturer sells the guns from the factory with similar types (e.g. "adjustable") on them.

My question is this:

Glock sells the G17 with adjustable sights. The dawson sights are adjustable. That part is pretty simple and obvious/legal.

BUT...the Dawson sights are fiber optic (the front sight is). Can I put those on my Glock without getting punted into Open div.?

And if not, how about getting just the non-FO rear sight and making my own FS?

[Garfield]

my Glock

What Glock ?

Interesting question though.

Obviously as you have found out the rule in question here is app. D4 cond. 20.2 (effective per 01-01-2004) :

"Aftermarket sights of the same type and kind offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun".

I wouldn't know the answer, although I have a feeling that "same type and kind" will be interpreted in such a way that a change to fibre-optic sights is not allowed.

But let's see what other people have to say about this.

Personally I hope that they are not allowed. I feel very strongly that all allowed changes degrade the very spirit of PD. But that's another issue

[Mississippi]

Dawson sights are USPSA legal in Production.

[Jake Di Vita]

IPSC, not USPSA.

[Mississippi]

My bad.

[Flexmoney]

Personally I hope that they are not allowed. I feel very strongly that all allowed changes degrade the very spirit of PD. But that's another issue 

And...I feel strongly that changing the sights and improving the trigger are about the smartest thing you can do to any gun...and should be legal in all divisions. Glad I am in USPSA.

(but, that is drifting the thread. )

Spook,

I don't know that you will be able to get a good answer here in the Glock section, I am going to kick this up to the rules section. Vince was likely in on the re-write, so he may have some insight.

Here is a picture of the sights on a G34/35 (from Dawson's website).

[Vince Pinto]

Spook,

Our dear friend Arvid is 100% correct - fibre optic sights are not permitted on your Glock under IPSC Production rules because Glock do not offer such "type and kind" of sights on their guns.

In a nutshell, IPSC Producton Division is an "out-of-the-box" (non SAO) division however we allow limited leeway with sights, although I would personally prefer zero flexibility.

BTW, the rules did not change - we merely added language in the January 2004 Edition to make the rules clearer.

Flex,

If you'd like to allow people to also improve or change their trigger, why not allow them to also improve or change their barrel, slide, striker or other components?

IPSC Answer: Arms race not available in IPSC Production Division.

[Flexmoney]

Flex,

If you'd like to allow people to also improve or change their trigger, why not allow them to also improve or change their barrel, slide, striker or other components?

IPSC Answer: Arms race not available in IPSC Production Division.

I don't know what one has to do with the other. It is easy enough to say that you can change the sights and the trigger...but not barrels, slides and other such things.

In fact, IPSC already allows changes to their version of Production, correct?

It just stipulates control over those changes. An Ipsc Production shooter can still change their Glock sights...no $aving$ there. And they can still work their triggers over...they just have to conform to the arbitrary trigger pull weight.

So, the difference between the USPSA and IPSC rules is a matter of degree. USPSA lets the shooter decide what they will do best with...whereas IPSC limits that freedom.

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

And they can still work their triggers over...they just have to conform to the arbitrary trigger pull weight.

Incorrect. You cannot "work" your trigger under IPSC Production Division rules and the trigger pull weight is a deterrent for those who might try.

So, the difference between the USPSA and IPSC rules is a matter of degree. USPSA lets the shooter decide what they will do best with...whereas IPSC limits that freedom.

If it was truly about freedom, there would be no restrictions whatsover. Even so-called "Open" Division has "arbitrary" restrictions such as magazine length. The fact is that you just don't like the IPSC Production Division rules - and you're entitled to your opinion - but both sets of rules have restrictions.

For IPSC Production Division, it's all about not changing the operation of the gun. If the rules allow internal modifications (as the USPSA version does), then the gun is no longer a "factory" gun.

[spook]

Ok thanks guys. Lots of info here, but questions remain.

In a nutshell, IPSC Producton Division is an "out-of-the-box" (non SAO) division however we allow limited leeway with sights, although I would personally prefer zero flexibility.

My question is: how much leeway exactly? AFAI understand, the rule is very vague, and it depends on the guys who's judging your gun?

Basically, it comes down to this:

The things I change on my guns are: grips, sights and trigger. Now, grips I cannot change in PD. The Glock trigger I can live with. But those horrible sights gotta go.

What can I use on my Glock. And what if I take the FO rod out, weld the hole closed, and machine it (making my own sight)?

QUOTE (spook @ Oct 27 2003, 04:28 PM)

my Glock

What Glock ? 

Arvid, it's OK to dream isn't it? (even when it's about a cheap plastic gun with a crappy trigger and awful sights )

I'm not getting into the whole USPSA vs. IPSC PD discussion, because we'll have some major thread drifting ahead when I do, so.....

(But for the record, PD should be a 5 lbs. first round, 10+1 round max, USPSA mods allowed division )

[Vince Pinto]

Spook,

The rules currently state:

26. Replacement sights are allowed as long at their installation requires no alteration to the slide and the type (i.e. adjustable) of sights installed is offered by the firearm manufacturer for that specific model.

The use of "i.e." above (as opposed to "e.g."), effectively limits a change of fixed rear sights to adjustable rear sights.

In the January 2004 Edition, the rules have been further clarified to say:

19.3 Front sights may be trimmed, adjusted and/or have sight black applied.

20. Aftermarket parts, components and accessories are prohibited, except as follows:

20.2 Aftermarket sights of the same type and kind offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun.

The operative words above are "same type and kind", so 3-dot fiber optic sights are not the "same type and kind" as 3-dot non-fiber optic sights. And yes, you can make your own sights provided they are the "same type and kind" as those offered by the OFM and provided you don't modify the gun.

And I'm curious - what don't you like about the standard Glock factory sights?

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

On the issue of "modifications" consider the following two guys who arrive at a match wanting to shoot in Production Division:

Shooter 1: Standard Glock 17, zero modifications.

Shooter 2: Has a "Glock 17" with:

Aro-Tek slide

Bar-Sto barrel

Robar grip reduction

Robar extended beavertail

Comminoli trigger

Glockmeister "minus" connector

Glockmeister captured tungsten recoil rod

Glockmeister extended slide lock

Lightning Strike firing pin

FSSG slide cover plate and selector

Dawson fiber-optic sights

Grams magwell

Hogue rubber grip sleeve

Is the second gun actually still a Glock 17?

[eric nielsen]

For what it's worth, I like the sights on my G35, which are factory (adjustable) with a couple of quick mods that cost me nothing.

First, I borrowed a new scraper razor from work - the kind you scrape stickers off of windows with. Used it to (carefully) cut down the sides of the plastic front site until there is just a little black showing around that fat white dot. I took jewelers files to widen & deepen the rear notch, but still have black showing within the outlined U-shape.

Then I took different colors of Sharpie & tried combinations of colors over top of the white front dot & rear U-shape. The colors stay very light with white plastic behind it - layer on more ink if you want. If you don't like it, take it off with a Qtip and alcohol and try something different. I think you should avoid the color red.

What I settled on was a lite green dot in front and a darker blue outline in back. It's worked very well in matches. Where before I was over-confident and sloppy with the big white dot & outline, now I mostly just see the black notch and post. The colors are there if the light gets dim. I'll use these sites till they break.

Curious if a Sharpie will help for the people whose fiber-optic is "too bright"...

[Garfield]

my Glock

What Glock ?

 

Arvid, it's OK to dream isn't it? (even when it's about a cheap plastic gun with a crappy trigger and awful sights )

Oh yeah, it just struck me as funny because just sunday night we were discussing you wanting to buy a G17 to start in PD next year.

Have you actually ever shot with the standard sights ? I must admit that I have never used any sight that was more fancy than "adjustable", but I really prefer those plain and simple, fixed sights. I have had too many troubles with adjustable sights and I still see people at matches whose sights have been screwed up because they came loose or so. To me, the challenge is to shoot best with the gun as it comes out of the factory. (But I learmed shooting "large" caliber with an old rusty FEG, maybe I'm just twisted since then )

[spook]

And I'm curious - what don't you like about the standard Glock factory sights?

I think the FS is too big (wide). The rear sight notch is too shallow and wide, and on the adjustable Glock sights, I find the "gaps" in the rear sight distracting. I also do not like "box and dot" type sights, or any rear sight that has anything other than black on it.

I like the Dawsons, because the dimensions seem right (0.090 FS, 0.110 rear), not because they're FO.

Vince, I think you're example illustrates the need to draw a line somewhere. It's just very difficult to do that and still allow some mods.

Arvid, I've shot Glocks with standard sights. And I admit I like fixed sights better that adjustables. Perhaps I'll just go with a pair of Heinies or Novaks. I just don't know how much of a hassle it'll be to get them "adjusted"(?).

I'll ask forum member A33435 if you can see the sights on his Glock (slide-burried Bomars) at our next match. It'll give you an idea of what I'm looking for in sights.

[Vince Pinto]

Spook,

Vince, I think you're example illustrates the need to draw a line somewhere. It's just very difficult to do that and still allow some mods.

I don't understand what you mean but IPSC Production Division rules prohibit all internal and external modifications except for some leeway with sights (as explained earlier) and with magazines (aftermarket versions must have the same external dimensions as the OFM originals).

What other line should we draw? If you have suggestions, please spell them out clearly - I'm always a bit slow on Tuesdays.

[spook]

OK, here goes the predicted thread drifting :

What I mean is that it is difficult to "allow" aftermarket sights, and still specify what type of sights are allowed. What the manufacturer offers can vary from day to day. If I shoot a Smith & Wesson 5906 for instance, I would be able to put some FO sights on it.

It's difficult (at least, it seems difficult to me) to keep up with what all the manufacturers offer. I think it's easier to make rules based on existing non-variables (length of mag, capacity, trigger pull weight etc.*).

The way it is now, the mods you can make to your gun depends on the brand of gun you shoot. Before you know it, you'll get a similar list as the IDPA holster list, with all the allowed mods on it. OR...everyone will be shooting a Glock, CZ or Para (and that kinda leaves the whole "shoot-whatcha-got"-thing in PD hanging by a thread)

*For instance:

10+1 rounds (don't care how long the mag is)

5 lbs. triggerpull (I wouldn't even care if you shot a 5lbs. 1911 or BHP, but lets keep it no SAO )

no external mods exept:

sights (nothing electronic)

skateboard tape

grips (nothing heavy)

no internal aftermarket parts

no comps ports or recoil reducing devices

[Vince Pinto]

Spook,

OK, got it.

As I said earlier, I would prefer zero tolerance in Production Division, which means you would not be able to use anything but the OFM sights or anything else for that matter.

And while I agree it's potentially difficult to keep up with all the possible options available from each manufacturer, the fact is that five manufacturers (Glock, CZ, S&W, H&K and Beretta) have the lion's share of the PD market worldwide.

And I've yet to attend a match where there wasn't at least one competitor or RO who was intimately aware of "everything you need to know about Brand X guns" and, believe me when I tell you, the primary "law enforcement" in PD are actually other competitors. For example, we received about a dozen "queries" about the Heinie sights on David Sevigny's Glock 17 at WSXIII, but they were PD legal.

I also don't need a trigger gauge to tell me if a Glock trigger is <5lbs, but of course I would still use one to confirm my suspicions.

Anyway, IPSC Production Division is highly successful on a global basis, and it's arguably our fastest growing division. Moreover, I'm unaware of any complaints or difficulties at any Level III or higher sanctioned match in respect of PD.

However if you have first-hand information of a Level III or higher sanctioned match where PD enforcement was a problem, please let me know.

[Skywalker]

Spook,

this is a link to a thread I started some 10 months ago.

I had the same concerns you have, but in the end the general opinion was to leave the rules as they are, and we have to live with this.

Vince,

I'd add Tanfoglio to the lions sharing the PD market worldwide. Even if I don't like them, at least they won the WSXIII Team gold medal.

[spook]

Anyway, IPSC Production Division is highly successful on a global basis, and it's arguably our fastest growing division.

Vince, don't get me wrong. I love the idea behind PD. It's just impossible to "know" all guns on the list. If I attend EC2004 with a Dlask and some funky sights, will YOU be able to tell me whether they're allowed or not (or would you have to find someone else, or call the factory, while I'm waiting at the chrono)?

However if you have first-hand information of a Level III or higher sanctioned match where PD enforcement was a problem, please let me know.

I have. I won't use names. A guy in my squad at the Chzech Nats was shooting a Glock 17. Trigger was too light and he had a grip reduction that was "undone" with some polymer epoxy stuff. I figured he would shoot open from that moment on. But he finished top 5 PD. I didn't complain for 2 reasons.

1) I shot revolver, so I wouldn't give a #$%k if he shot a 1911 with a 1 pound trigger.

2) I don't rat on other guys. It makes me feel bad. He had no intention (I could tell) to cheat. It's the job of the RO to apply the rules. Not the shooters job to check and see if they can get closer to 1st place by ratting on some fellow shooters.

Luca, thanks for the thread. Yeah, I guess we could decide to live with it. But OTOH, PD is still young. There's still time to "change" the rules.

[Skywalker]

Spook,

what I posted in the linked thread is still what I'm thinking, and I will not change my mind about it. Incidentally, looks like we share the same ideas...

I had decided to "live with it" because even if everybody is entitled an opinion, wherever there are rules the old latin saying "Ubi maior, minor cessat" applies, and, unless somebody wants to become an "outlaw", everybody is required to comply.

I, you, have made suggestions, they can be accepted or rejected, but in the end we all have to accept the final ruling.

[Vince Pinto]

Spook,

If I attend EC2004 with a Dlask and some funky sights, will YOU be able to tell me whether they're allowed or not (or would you have to find someone else, or call the factory, while I'm waiting at the chrono)?

A Dlask, huh? Easy. I would DQ you for having a butt-ugly gun

It's the job of the RO to apply the rules. Not the shooters job to check and see if they can get closer to 1st place by ratting on some fellow shooters.

No sir. It's the competitor's responsibility to comply with the rules, just like it's a driver's responsibility to observe the speed limit and not drive under the influence of alcohol.

When I took up IPSC, there was a sense of honour, and I'd like to think that still prevails today.

Does every RO on every stage at every match check that every Open Division competitor's magazines do not exceed 170mm? Do we strip every gun on every stage to verify that PD guns have not been internally modified?

Unless we want to see matches grind to a halt or take 7 days for 7 stages, we must primarily rely on honour and spot checks. And believe me when I tell you that if a competitor arrives with a Dlask and funky sights and claims it's legal for PD, I would give him the benefit of the doubt. However after the match, I would quietly investigate and, if I found he had lied to me, I'd make it my mission in life to ensure that he never gets away with that stunt again.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice? No wucking fay

And I don't know about anybody else, but failing to satisfy the requirements of a division and being relegated to Open Division would cast a shadow over my integrity, even if it occurred unintentionally and, to me, that is a far greater loss of face than 100 DQs for unsafe gun handling.

[Wakal]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that some little podunk police department had ordered their Tactical Tupperware with fiber front sights...and Glock would provide a letter proving that when asked.

Is it true...and wouldn't it make a fiber front legal for IPSC Production since they came from the factory that way?

Alex

[Vince Pinto]

Alex,

Is it a factory option available to anybody? If so, then they'd be legal for IPSC Production Division.

If they are a special LE issue only available to the Hooterville Police, end of story.

[Flexmoney]

OK...looks like we are back to drifting...so, I'll jump back in.

I said:

And they can still work their triggers over...they just have to conform to the arbitrary trigger pull weight. 

Vince replied:

Incorrect. You cannot "work" your trigger under IPSC Production Division rules and the trigger pull weight is a deterrent for those who might try.

Vince, I don't know which rulebook you are pulling from. I don't have a copy of the next rulebook. I am looking at the Red book, 14th ed.

Under Appendix E, Divisions (IPSC), Production, item f): "Internal modifications such as polishing or detailing of factory components are allowed."

Under the rules that I have read, my original point still stands...you can change the sights & and you can work the triggers over, in IPSC Production. The equipment race is on!