IDPA Firearms Choice Question (yes another one !)

[Delta]

The only weapon I am able to carry on/off duty has to has to be DA with a de-cocking lever..I presently have both a Sig 226 and a 229 (issued)...I am in the market to purchase my own, which still has to conform to the above requirement if I wish to carry ccw..I want to try my hand at IDPA or other competition so have been handling both a Beretta 92G and a HK45 and 30L..Being new to the competition world is there any advantage to either the 45 or 9 as they both theoretically should knock down a target..?? From what I have seen neither choices are high on the list of serious competitors (or so I have read), but have to fill my requirement and assuming cost is not an issue..(My wife wont read this !!)

[Cy Soto]

What's wrong with using either the P226 or P229 for IDPA? If you are looking to smooth out the trigger on your Sig check the trigger jobs offered by Bruce Gray from Gray Guns.

[Delta]

What's wrong with using either the P226 or P229 for IDPA? If you are looking to smooth out the trigger on your Sig check the trigger jobs offered by Bruce Gray from Gray Guns.

They are not mine..Any trigger job on my issue weapon is a BIG no-no..(liability issues ect. ect.)

[Cy Soto]

They are not mine..Any trigger job on my issue weapon is a BIG no-no..(liability issues ect. ect.)

Oh, I see... In this case, have you considered purchasing your own Sig pistol? This way you can practice with a faithful analog of the pistol you carry on duty.

If you are just looking to purchase another pistol specifically for gun games (and it has to have a DA/SA trigger), may I recommend taking a look at a CZ SP-01. This pistol is a tad bit heavier than other DA/SA guns so you probably won't want to carry off duty but, it is a great gun for both IDPA (ESP Division) and USPSA (Production).

[Delta]

They are not mine..Any trigger job on my issue weapon is a BIG no-no..(liability issues ect. ect.)

Oh, I see... In this case, have you considered purchasing your own Sig pistol? This way you can practice with a faithful analog of the pistol you carry on duty.

If you are just looking to purchase another pistol specifically for gun games (and it has to have a DA/SA trigger), may I recommend taking a look at a CZ SP-01. This pistol is a tad bit heavier than other DA/SA guns so you probably won't want to carry off duty but, it is a great gun for both IDPA (ESP Division) and USPSA (Production).

In fact I held (fondled) one yesterday at a place called Shoot Straight in Tampa...I liked the way if felt in hand, but the trigger action was anything but smooth..I dont know how to describe it..It felt like a 10 lb trigger pull with something wrong with it...I asked if there was something wrong with it, as there was not another to compare it with...The kid behind the counter did say it didnt feel right to him either..Maybe I can find another one elsewhere to try...

[Cy Soto]

The trigger does need a little bit of work but with a lighter mainspring and a competition trigger (under $100 worth of parts) you have a good shooter. With a full trigger job you can drop the DA pull to about 6 pounds and the SA to under 2 pounds.

Check out this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=82810 and if you have any specific questions about how to make this pistol rock, check with BE member eerw, he has all the answers for any CZ question you may have.

[jkushner1]

Delta:

Odds are that you'll eventually shoot steel matches and eventually USPSA (IPSC). The 45acp is out as it limits you to one division in IDPA, is very uncommonats Steel shoots and gives you one division in USPSA (Single Stack). A 9mm is perfect for IDPA SSP and ESP, Steel and USPA Production. But a .40 that you either load or buy both major and minor ammo for is your best bet, minor for IDPA SSP, ESP; steel, and USPSA Production, Major add both USPSA Limited 10, Single Stack and Limited. The HK P30 HK Expert in .40 is sweet, so would be a CZ 75 sa/da in .40 or an CZ 75 SP-01 in .40 with decocker. A Sig is good or excellent, but dont have alot of people smithing them or making parts for them (I have and Elite and X5 All Around). Also dont forget about a Smith & Wesson 5906 series or Bertta PX4 Storm. Match qulity Ammo in .40 both major and minor reloaded is available from Precision Delta, Atlanta Arms, Georgia Arms and Zero at very good prices (relatively speaking). I shot IDPA today, usually shoot USPSA production or L-10 2-3 times a month and shoot steel once a month. The only drawback of a decocker gun is for USPSA L-10, Limited and Single staack, these are SA start divisions, but you'll have to start DA. But remember in a 6 stage club match thats 6-8 DA shots (depending if multiple strings are part of the plan) versus 152-154 Sa shots.

Good luck, and don't forget three gun as you mature over time. One final note for the first year, unless your an exception, I would stick wth one discipline like IDPA, then you can add in USPSA aafter a year or so. Steel is the easiest to add in as it doesnt require understanding a complex new set of rules.

TY

Jkushner1

[sigfla]

Best option is the CZ for sure. Get some trigger work done and you will be very happy. OR use the SIG and get good with your duty weapon. It may not be the most competitive option but that is really up to you not the gun. I have seen guys do majic with the "one" gun they shoot/own/carry.

[Duane Thomas]

Being new to the competition world is there any advantage to either the 45 or 9 as they both theoretically should knock down a target..?? From what I have seen neither choices are high on the list of serious competitors (or so I have read)

Where have you been reading? 9mm is, in my experience, the most popular cartridge choice in SSP, and pretty darn popular in ESP as well. Actually it's probably the single most popular cartridge in IDPA. And we had an entire division in CDP in which you can only fire .45 ACP. Both these cartridges are VERY popular in IDPA.

[Duane Thomas]

The 45acp is out as it limits you to one division in IDPA, is very uncommonats Steel shoots and gives you one division in USPSA (Single Stack).

Why is it out? If you want to shoot a .45 ACP in IDPA or USPSA, just shoot it in CDP or Single Stack. And from what I've seen, at least at the local level, the .45 ACP is quite popular in steel matches.

[Duane Thomas]

I'm assuming your P226 is a 9mm and the P229 is a .40. (?) Anyway, my advice: shoot the P226. Light 9mm recoil, the handling qualities of a full-sized service pistol, and the manual of operation is identical to your issue weapon. It makes absolutely NO sense, if the purpose is to improve your gun handling and skill level with the gun you carry "for real", to put in all that time and effort, to build up all that muscle memory, on a gun with a different control layout than your issue sidearm.

Major consideration: among factory cartridges (and as a new competitor I doubt you handload), 9mm hardball is literally the least expensive centerfire cartridge you can buy, and its recoil level is perfectly suited for both IDPA and USPSA. Enough oomph to reliably make power factor, not so much more you pick up a lot of excess recoil, right out of the factory box.

Also, another big consideration: you've already got the SIG so you won't have to pay the bucks to buy a new gun, and more bucks to pistolsmith it, and more bucks for a new holster and magazines and mag pouches for a completely different gun.

Shoot the P226.

[Delta]

Being new to the competition world is there any advantage to either the 45 or 9 as they both theoretically should knock down a target..?? From what I have seen neither choices are high on the list of serious competitors (or so I have read)

Where have you been reading? 9mm is, in my experience, the most popular cartridge choice in SSP, and pretty darn popular in ESP as well. Actually it's probably the single most popular cartridge in IDPA. And we had an entire division in CDP in which you can only fire .45 ACP. Both these cartridges are VERY popular in IDPA.

What I meant was HK's or Beretta's not the calibers (9mm or .45)

[Delta]

I'm assuming your P226 is a 9mm and the P229 is a .40. (?) Anyway, my advice: shoot the P226. Light 9mm recoil, the handling qualities of a full-sized service pistol, and the manual of operation is identical to your issue weapon. It makes absolutely NO sense, if the purpose is to improve your gun handling and skill level with the gun you carry "for real", to put in all that time and effort, to build up all that muscle memory, on a gun with a different control layout than your issue sidearm.

Major consideration: among factory cartridges (and as a new competitor I doubt you handload), 9mm hardball is literally the least expensive centerfire cartridge you can buy, and its recoil level is perfectly suited for both IDPA and USPSA. Enough oomph to reliably make power factor, not so much more you pick up a lot of excess recoil, right out of the factory box.

Also, another big consideration: you've already got the SIG so you won't have to pay the bucks to buy a new gun, and more bucks to pistolsmith it, and more bucks for a new holster and magazines and mag pouches for a completely different gun.

Shoot the P226.

Thanks for the reply...I cant use my duty weapon as it does not belong to me, nor can it be smithed except by our own armorer (Wont happen unless its broke !!)...I do reload 44-40, 9mm and .223..Im just not set up for 45 as I never owned one, thats why I was thinking about the HK 45, it could be duel use as it has a decocking lever..The HK P30L, I can reload for or the Beretta, as they too have decocking levers which makes em duel use as well..Thats why I was asking if there is any advantage to 45 caliber over the 9mm in IDPA competition...If so, I would get the HK45...IF not Ill check into the CZ, Beretta 92G or the HK P30L

Edited April 20, 2009 by Delta

[Boats]

Delta, to your IDPA 9mm vs .45 question.

Our club and most regional matches there are 10 times as many competitors in SSP using 9mm's than CDP with the .45. With more competition you skill level will improve faster & 9's are easier to shoot well for all the reasons listed above.

The 45 in CDP is a bit harder to learn to shoot due recoil. However at the top level, stage times and scores, they are about the same. This due to the generally better triggers and larger hole on target occasionally picking up a few points. Could be and to my mind likely, because more experienced shooters are using them.

My recommendation for anybody starting in IDPA is use a 9mm SSP and work on your personal skills not modifying tweaking or thinking much about the pistol at all.

On the duty gun vs competition gun, Years ago when I had to carry a Government 1911 my personal gun was also a 1911 that was functionally identical to the issue pistol. Only difference was the trigger had been tuned and it was spring for 200 gr SWC's instead of hardball. I don't think there is any other option, you should use exactly what you are issued except perhaps the lighter recoiling and cheaper to shoot 9mm. You don't want to fumble your pistol any time because the switches and buttons are not what you are used too.

Boats

Edited April 20, 2009 by Boats

[Delta]

Delta, to your IDPA 9mm vs .45 question.

Our club and most regional matches there are 10 times as many competitors in SSP using 9mm's than CDP with the .45. With more competition you skill level will improve faster & 9's are easier to shoot well for all the reasons listed above.

The 45 in CDP is a bit harder to learn to shoot due recoil. However at the top level, stage times and scores, they are about the same. This due to the generally better triggers and larger hole on target occasionally picking up a few points. Could be and to my mind likely, because more experienced shooters are using them.

My recommendation for anybody starting in IDPA is use a 9mm SSP and work on your personal skills not modifying tweaking or thinking much about the pistol at all.

On the duty gun vs competition gun, Years ago when I to carry a Government 1911 my personal gun was also a 1911 that was functionally identical to the issue pistol. Only difference was the trigger had been tuned and it was spring for 200 gr SWC's instead of hardball. I don't think there is any other option, you should use exactly what you are issued except perhaps the lighter recoiling and cheaper to shoot 9mm. You don't want to fumble your pistol any time because the switches and buttons are not what you are used too.

Boats

Thanks Boats....!!! Its a 9mm then...Sooo many options..But at least the caliber is a done deal..

[sigfla]

If you don't mind me asking what is the deal with the de-cock requirement? I am assuming you are in Fla. so I know it isn't a req. there for concealed carry. You will be well served with the 9mm for SSP and ESP divisions. However since I see you reload .40 would serve just as well and allow you some sidelines into USPSA major divison. As a reloader I would go with .40. If I didn't reload I would choose the 9mm.

Given your requirments for the gun I would still recommend the CZ platform with some light trigger work. If you can get to a local IDPA or USPSA match see if anyone has a CZ they are using, preferably an Angus/Mink tuned gun.

[Delta]

If you don't mind me asking what is the deal with the de-cock requirement? I am assuming you are in Fla. so I know it isn't a req. there for concealed carry. You will be well served with the 9mm for SSP and ESP divisions. However since I see you reload .40 would serve just as well and allow you some sidelines into USPSA major divison. As a reloader I would go with .40. If I didn't reload I would choose the 9mm.

Given your requirements for the gun I would still recommend the CZ platform with some light trigger work. If you can get to a local IDPA or USPSA match see if anyone has a CZ they are using, preferably an Angus/Mink tuned gun.

The requirement is for my Agency in which I work...Since they pay my mortgage it WILL have a de-cocker !! I'm not that readily inclined to go .40 as the components are not that readily available to reload and are beginning to become scarce at my Department. (cutting back practice rounds)...I will also look back into the CZ in 9mm..After I do some checking on the trigger thread which were graciously provided for me...(I don't believe CZ is on our list of Duty/off duty weapons, I will check today...)

Well no CZ's or Glock "C";s or Glock 34 or 35....I think Im inclined to go with the HKP30L ....

Edited April 21, 2009 by Delta

[Duane Thomas]

Thats why I was asking if there is any advantage to 45 caliber over the 9mm in IDPA competition

There isn't, not even in scoring. There is no Major/Minor caliber differentiation in IDPA, as there is in USPSA/IPSC. All hits score identically, no matter what caliber inflicted them. Thus no reason to shoot a .40 or .45 over a 9mm - unless of course you just like firing a .40 or .45.

[Delta]

Thats why I was asking if there is any advantage to 45 caliber over the 9mm in IDPA competition

There isn't, not even in scoring. There is no Major/Minor caliber differentiation in IDPA, as there is in USPSA/IPSC. All hits score identically, no matter what caliber inflicted them. Thus no reason to shoot a .40 or .45 over a 9mm - unless of course you just like firing a .40 or .45.

I think I have it narrowed down to the H&K 30L (9mm) or a Beretta 92"G", (also 9mm) if they are still in production, which know one seems to know...(But I sure do like the new H&K45)

[Boats]

There is a little difference in scoring 45's make a larger hole and it's possable to pick up a few edge shots 9's will leave behind. Not a big issue in action pistol events, Bullseye it's noticable. IDPA look at match winning times, very little advantage to CDP over anything else. Major difference to my mind is the shooter, experenced guys lean more toward the 1911 platform in CDP or ESP it's the shooter more than the gun.

One thing though why not just get a Sig like your duty pistol ? No Flies on them.

Boats

[S&W627shooter]

The CZ is a sweet gun that can be tweaked to be an awesome competition gun in USPSA Production and IDPA!

[Duane Thomas]

Major difference to my mind is the shooter, experenced guys lean more toward the 1911 platform in CDP or ESP

Not necessarily true. Most of the real action, the truly kickass shooters in my local IDPA club, are in SSP. (Sorry, CDP guys but it's true.) I've gone that way myself, from a 1911 to a Glock 34 and thence to a Glock 17.

I'm not saying there aren't great CDP shooters out there, of course there are. But SSP, man, that's where the war takes place.

[Boats]

Duane agree SSP is were the best competition takes place.

Am not sure if it is because of or in spite of the equipment. Having used a M&P for about a year now I think the ergonomics make it a better action pistol than older single action designs. Most action matches the trigger is not a real negative and the striker guns triggers are getting better as people learn how to tweak them.

Boats