Can´t We Watch The Stages?

[Luiz Francisco Ramos]

Here, we have a competition sunday. Saturday, is the day for RO´s to shoot. I and another shooters come into the club to watch them.

The ranger master ask us to leave the place because we could not see the stages the day before.

Is it correct? There is any rule concerning the action?

thanks...

Ramos

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Luiz,

I can't think of a good reason why you shouldn't watch the "pre-match", and I think it's absurd that you're prevented from doing so. In any case, while there is no specific rule to cover this now, the next rule book (January 2004 Edition) deals with this as follows:

6.6.2 Range Officials, match sponsors, IPSC Officers (as defined in Section 6.1 of the IPSC Constitution) and other persons may compete for score in a "pre-match", subject to the prior approval of the Match Director. Competitors in the main match must not be restricted from viewing the pre-match. All members of official Regional Teams must compete in the main match. Scores attained in the "pre-match" may, at the discretion of the Match Director, be included in the overall match results provided the dates of the "pre-match" are published in the official match schedule. (also see Section 2.3).

Hope this helps.

[LPatterson]

Luis, it may have been that the RM was using the RO match to insure that the stages were set properly without possibility of shoot throughs or 180 traps (excuse me Vince 90 degree traps). I was at the Limited Nationals on Sep 12 and watched the CRO's inspect all the stages, they started about 1030 and finished about 1600 hours. By commitee decision there were minor changes made to several stages, Stage 9 had some major changes, Stage 11 had a fault line added to prevent a 90 degree trap, Stage 13 had the barrel changed to an Incubator by turning it sideways and mounting it on the wall, some PC BS about dropping the baby in a trashcan. Stage 16 had an overhaul as to target locations and changes to the walkthrough description. The RO meeting on the 13th included keeping shooters off the stages until after noon as listed in the match book because several shooters arrived the 12th wanting to test fire their guns.

Vince, thank you and all the other people for the work on the new rules. I know IPSC is supposed to be free style but there are times when our shooters get a little too free with their style.

[PhilTerry]

I think there may be two different issues - I am sure Vince will correct me if I am wrong but in the first case cited by Luis if this was a pre-match for score in the match, it has to be shot on the actual stages to be used for the match.

In the US many large matches use a separate RO match to "proof and rearrange" stages prior to the main match and the RO match is scored as a stand alone event. There may be some justification in keeping competitors off the range for a separate RO match since it might give an advantage to those who are able to arrive early if they can witness the discussions and debates.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

An experienced range crew can "debug" a stage without firing a shot, and that's why we give the MD authority to have the scores of the "pre-match" included in the final match results. If the stages for both matches are identical, there's no reason why the scores shouldn't be treated identically, and allowing people to watch the "pre-match" merely provides transparency.

However we cannot allow competitors to actually walk-through a stage, to activate moving targets, interefere with props and so on, because their unsupervised actions may affect the stage, so we have a separate rule to deal with this:

8.7.5 No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the Range Master. Violators will incur a warning for the first offence but may be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6 for subsequent offences.

Hence anyone can watch a "pre-match" from the spectator area, but nobody can enter the stage proper without approval.

[Garfield]

What Vince forgot to say is that here too he is referring to the new rules,

which will become effective per 01-01-2004 unless they are not approved

[Vince Pinto]

Arvid,

Sorry, I thought you already knew that the January 2004 Edition of the separate Handgun, Shotgun and Rifle rulebooks were approved unanimously at the General Assembly last month in Italy.

Counting down ................... 93 days to go

[Luiz Francisco Ramos]

Thanks Vince!

It´s clear for me now...

Ramos

[Garfield]

Sorry, I thought you already knew that the January 2004 Edition of the separate Handgun, Shotgun and Rifle rulebooks were approved unanimously at the General Assembly last month in Italy.

Now that you mention this, I vaguely start remembering you posting that.

I could come up with excuses like "I was on holiday" and so, but let's face it, I should've known

[uscbigdawg]

I kind of like the rules that were in place at the 2001 (?) Area 6 Championships that were held at Ant Hill in North Carolina (gorgeous range by the way). Each bay was roped off and a nice big sign posted at the front of each stage stating something to the effect:

If you are not a member of the squad currently located on this bay, you will be disqualified from the match, without exception.

Now, I don't think that this was a matter of avoiding gamesmanship or anything of the sort. I think that it was driven by allowing the squad and shooter to be able to walk through their stage without inconvenience (I think the other standing match rule was that ONLY the on deck shooter was allowed to walk through the stage...and enforced).

I personally prefer both forms of restricting view of the stages. Like I said, not for any other reason than allowing each shooter their time to review, work and shoot the stage. I've made this a rule, to be enforced with procedurals (for interuppting shooters) or verbal tongue lashing (usally the case ) at local matches that I run. It's common courtesy and just makes everything run smooter.

Just my two Lincoln's,

Rich