9.9.1 Moving Targets

[TheOtherErik]

Im going to using a texas windmill in large match in the near future and I have a few questions regarding (9.9.1) as it would be applied to this prop.

9.1.1 moving targets. After completing desgined movement, moving target must either present at least a portion of the higest scoring area("A" zone) when at rest or disappear completly......

The windmill will do both! Im going to have it set up behind baricades so that only one side of the windmill will be exposed. When the thing eventualycomes to a stop 1 of 4 targets or 2 of 4 targests will be exposed. Or possiblly a partial exposeure(NO A zone) at rest. totaly random

Its in my opinion that you if you let the thing come to a rest its your own darn fault. You should have shot it while it was moving. But what about the whiners? "when he shot it, the thing had two targets showing. I had this stupid jam and when i got there only one was showing! thats not fair! I want this stage thrown out!"

Help me defend my stage.

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

It's got nothing to do with opinions or the "whiners" - it's all about the rules. If the windmill eventually comes to a rest, irrespective of how long it takes, the rules dictate how the targets are treated.

Any target which does not show a portion of the A Zone when at rest is classified as a disappearing target, so penalties for failing to shoot at it and misses cannot be applied.

And, yes, if the windmill can stop randomly, a different number of targets will qualify as disappearing targets for different competitors, and that's not equitable, so Rule 4.5.1 will apply.

My best advice is to either make the windmill turn continuously or declare in the written stage briefing that all targets on the windmill are deemed to be disappearing targets.

[lynn jones]

erik,

the best way to solve your problem would be to put a barricade on both side of the windmill, texas star. that way, if and when the star stops, the plate will be at the bottom exposed. /*/

lynn

[SmittyFL]

I was under the assumption that if a target exposes itself more than once then it is not a disappearing even if it completely disappears eventually. Am I incorrect?

[PhilTerry]

The big challenge, as Vince noted, with these types of props is satisfying rule 4.5.1 - ensuring that the targets present themselves to all competitors in the same way - I have seen Texas Stars with the mounting points and plates numbered so that they always a replaced in the same locations to try to satisfy this rule.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Smitty,

You've highlighted a difference between IPSC rules and the USPSA variation.

Under IPSC Rules:

The number of exposures of the target and/or the time it takes for the target to come to rest are irrelevant. The key issue is what you see when the target stops moving, and the simple test question is:

"When the target eventually stops moving, is a portion of the A Zone visible?".

If the answer is "No", then it's a disappearing target, otherwise it's not.

Under USPSA Rules:

Same as above except that if the target "presents multiple exposures to the competitor before disappearing", it's not treated as disappearing, but since the word "multiple" is not defined (e.g. 2 times?, 3 times?, 4 times?), this leaves it open to interpretation.

Note:

The subject USPSA rule is identical to the former IPSC rule (14th Edition September 2000). However, IPSC updated it's rules and removed the "multiple exposures" anomaly in the current edition (14th Edition September 2002), but the USPSA did not follow suit.

In any case, you'll be pleased to know (?) that the subject rules have been further simplified in the IPSC Handgun Rules - January 2004 Edition, where we also removed the final anomaly.

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

My apologies - I just realised after replying to Smitty that the advice I gave you in my original reply is only correct in respect of IPSC rules.

In a USPSA match, the "multiple exposures" language will probably allow you to avoid treating any of the targets on your windmill as disappearing, but I still think Rule 4.5.1 could become an issue unless you ensure that the targets are presented in an identical way to all competitors.

[Vince Pinto]

Phil,

Thanks for your message, but all I want to say is ..................

Happy Birthday

Hope you have a great day and many more birthdays to come.

[TheOtherErik]

The windmill will start in the same place every time but when it eventually comes to a rest, it might not allways end up in the same place. Most shooters will have finished the stage by the time the thing as eventually comes to a complete stop. Really dont think 4.5.1 adresses this specificly...the windmill hasen't failed. It operated exactly the way it was suposed to. It spins 4 targets around a pivot numerous times powed by a weight. When the weight reaches the end of its travle, gravity and friction are the only factors that remain.

The chalenge has been presented "as fairly as possible"