lynn jones Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 hi vince, this years' 2003 Tenn. IPSC Champ. has this course of fire: http://www.ntps.org/tnstate/stage3.htm i talked to the course designer and he said it was legal under the new rules, it being a medium course. i don't think so. what do you think? lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Lynn, What new rules is he talking about? (btw, I split yuor post out to keep the thread drift in the other thread down to a minimum.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Interesting. Includes both the white/brown noshoot/shoot thread and the mandatory reload for a sub 17-round stage thread. As Flex once said (sorta): Itnersetnig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 I am assuming the 2003 Tenn. Match is an USPSA match? As such, it falls under the current USPSA rule book (old red). 4.1.3 says that the targets that score need to be of a single color. Is this a Sanctioned or Tournament match? If so, under US Appendix A, Us Match Levels... - All shooting is freestyle or dictated by props, except for standards. (Guess what I just realized...USPSA doesn't recognize the IPSC "Levels" for matches. We have Approved, Sanctioned, and Tournament. hmmmm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 It's kind of interesting to note that the fourth stage is a mirror image of the first stage (Bizzaro Left) without a reload. I suppose it's nice to have folks trying to keep the course design innovative and refreshing, but it looks to me like the designer is really inviting a lot of criticsm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 flex, this will be a Sanctioned match. the section coordinator approved the stages. the designer of the stage is also the section coordinator. the color of the targets is not a problem. i guess the new rule book "medium course" rule 1.2.1.2 is what the designer is using. the required reload is the problem, the new and old rules are violated (rule 1.1.5). lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 lynn, We don't have a new rule book. And, I think the color of the targets is a problem. It says to shoot the first array brown, the second white, right? (or vice-versa) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 flex, agreed, there isn't a new book in effect now. anyway, the require reload is a problem, also. your correct about the colors. i was thinking the next stage (#4 was going to be the next array). i need those reading glasses. thanks for pointing that out. i'll see if i can get these stages changed. lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Does the white side of a target have scoring perfs on it? I question whether it is legal to be able to assess 2 procedurals for failing to comply with the mandatory reload on this stage. Generally, assessing multiple procedurals for a failure to comply with a mandatory reload applies to a stage that has a very specific, single, point in the stage where the reload is required. This stage allows the shooter to reload at any time after the first 2 shots and before the last 2 shots. I believe that not performing the reload during this wide window of opportunity should only incur a single procedure. Having a mandatory reload on this stage is legal. It is covered by a ruling made by Amidon. NROI Ruling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Lynn, Sorry dude, I don't know how I missed this thread ! Anyway, the proposed stage seems legal in respect of Rule 1.1.5 which provides an exemption to the freestyle rules for Level I and Level II matches, hence the mandatory reload is OK. However there should only be a single procedural penalty for failing to perform the reload. On the other hand, the stage is illegal under Rules 4.1.3 et al, because of the target colours and markings. In a nutshell, Scoring Targets must be brown and Penalty Targets must be a different colour or "marked" (e.g. with an "X"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Darth...take a look at: ...USPSA doesn't recognize the IPSC "Levels" for matches. We have Approved, Sanctioned, and Tournament. hmmmm) US Appendix A - US Match Levels - Sanctioned Match - All shooting is freestyle or dictated by props, except for standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Flex, The USPSA, like every other region, is required to comply strictly with IPSC rules and regulations if it wants international sanctioning for a match, and there are a number of matches held in the USA each year which do apply for and receive IPSC Level III sanctioning. Although "US Appendix A" does not really explain the difference between an "approved" and a "sanctioned" match, I presume those are domestic terms to differentiate between USPSA Level I and Level II matches - a Tournament is defined in Rule 6.1.4. I also believe the "All shooting is freestyle or dictated by props, except for standards" wording is merely guidance and part of the match checklist. However if you believe the subject wording is actually a rule, then "US Appendix A" seems to be in direct conflict with Rule 1.1.5, and that's something you'll need to take up with the USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 here's what john a. said: The only problem with stage 3, is that the match is listed as a point series match, these are treated as a level lll match (tournament in the US), therefore, 1.1.5 states that mandatory reloads may only be specified in standards and shootoffs, the latitude given to level l and ll will not apply to your match. The reload has to go. Stage 4 becomes interpretive in what is a typical cardboard solid color, I have seen stages using white as shoot targets, and have approved them for Area Championships, though I have express to them that it is more of a mind game stage due to everyone having been imbedded with don't shoot the white, but it does not violate 4.1.3. Regards, John Amidon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Lynn, You had better get back with Amidon on the color thing. The stage calls for the shooter to shoot half one color (array1), and the other half the other color (array 2). Right? I doubt that Amidon picked up on that (from reading his response that you posted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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