Leading Quickly

[mr renwick]

I Just started loading lead with a couple of my buddies and have noticed that our rounds are key holing rather quickly( less than 100 rounds). The lead isn't moly coated But i didn't think we would run into leading that qucikly. We had three different loads 3.1, 3.4, 3.6 of clays 1.125 oal. I guess what I am asking is is that normal to lead that fast?

[Cy Soto]

You will have some lead buildup in the barrel after 100 rounds but I don't think that it'll enough to make the rounds tumble. Is it possible for the bullets to be key-holing because they have too much crimp?

On a separate note... Clays burns pretty hot (same with Titegroup), which will cause more leading than other powders. You may want to try using a "cooler" burning powder such as Solo 1000 or WST. FWIW I use WSF with lead bullets and I haven't had issues with tumbling rounds (even after shooting several hundred rounds between cleanings), but be warned that WSF smokes quite a bit.

[robertbank]

Ok I can't read. What diameter are you sizing your bullets? I had this happen to me early on when I sized my bullets to narrow. This will also contribute to leading and certainly tumbling. Lead bullets should be at least 1/1000 over bore to function. In the case of lead bullets bigger is better.

Take Care

Bob

Edited January 29, 2009 by robertbank

[lynn jones]

check to see if your bullets are under sized.

lynn

[mr renwick]

They were .401 and we were crimping them really tight. I will try backing off the crimp and see what happens.

[ebg3]

Backing off the crimp may help but you may need to go to a slower burning powder. What lube are you using? A softer lube may help.

[Jman]

Use Unique for bare lead bullets. Seriously.

Jim

[mr renwick]

Do you have a favorite unique load? One of the guys i shoot with has unique?

[styx]

Ramshot Silhouette works very well with cast bullets also. It's rumored to be the same powder as winchester WAP.

[Cy Soto]

Use Unique for bare lead bullets. Seriously.

Jim

Jim,

What benefit does Unique offer that other powder don't? Is it that it smokes less and/or it does not leave as much lead residue as other or is it something else?

Thanks!

-Cy

[HSMITH]

Unique burns cool (relatively), but the big thing is it is a tad slower to pressure and that allows the gas to get into the lube groove and pump the lube. With the crappy hard lube you get on commercial bullets the ability of Unique to pump the lube is what you are looking for. A fast powder like Clays will obturate the bullet quickly and prevents enough gas from getting into the lube groove to pump it out. Dig a couple of the Clays bullets out of the berm and you will see that the lube is intact and very little is used. Do the same with Unique and you will find that a lot more has been used. That lube pumping as the bullet passes down the bore is what prevents leading. The only other alternative is to cast bullets wicked hard, and that only works to a point....

With lead you want NO crimp unless it is a revolver specific bullet used in revolvers, they will have a crimp groove that keeps the crimping operation from swagging the bullet down and causing problems. Also get rid of the Factory Crimp Die if you are using one.

[G-ManBart]

Unique burns cool (relatively), but the big thing is it is a tad slower to pressure and that allows the gas to get into the lube groove and pump the lube. With the crappy hard lube you get on commercial bullets the ability of Unique to pump the lube is what you are looking for. A fast powder like Clays will obturate the bullet quickly and prevents enough gas from getting into the lube groove to pump it out. Dig a couple of the Clays bullets out of the berm and you will see that the lube is intact and very little is used. Do the same with Unique and you will find that a lot more has been used. That lube pumping as the bullet passes down the bore is what prevents leading. The only other alternative is to cast bullets wicked hard, and that only works to a point....

With lead you want NO crimp unless it is a revolver specific bullet used in revolvers, they will have a crimp groove that keeps the crimping operation from swagging the bullet down and causing problems. Also get rid of the Factory Crimp Die if you are using one.

Howard, do you think that instead of lube pumping it might simply be melting it and the slower pressure build gives it more time to do so? I ask because I know blackpowder ammo has lube, but the powder detonates and obturates (say that five times fast) the bullet nearly immediately. I know they use really soft lube and I was thinking that they do that so that the little bit of flash that gets past the base of the bullet before it obturates will melt more of the lube????

[HSMITH]

Bart, I think it is pumping and not melting at least initially. Black powder cartridge bullets carry a tremendous amount of lube compared to pistol bullets and being soft lube it is able to pump with relatively little gas pressure. Typically when they lead the bore it will be in the muzzle end of the barrel. In a pistol we typically see leading on the chamber end of the barrel and as friction and gas heats the hard lubes it can start to flow/pump and the leading stops or drastically reduces. I don't 'know' this to be fact, but it is my opinion formed over the years shooting a LOT of lead bullets.

[revchuck]

The main problem, IMO, with commercial hard cast bullets is that they use a hard lube. It applies easily and stays in the lube groove during shipping, but doesn't do too well when it comes to lubrication. Shooting them at low pressure, like in .38 Special or .45 ACP or minor .40 S&W, inhibits obduration, which causes blow-by of the powder gases, which melts the lead off the base and sides of the bullet. Using oversize bullets, or higher-pressure loads, mitigates this effect. I use .432s in my .44 Special loads, and have no leading problems...but then .44 Special chamber dimensions are generous enough that the extra diameter isn't a problem. Ain't necessarily so in other calibers.

When I used to cast my own bullets, I used wheelweights with added tin and soft lube. I never had a problem with leading. For the longest time, I used Zero swaged 158 grain RNLs in my .38 Special IDPA loads, and Zero uses a really soft lube. I went through ~750 rounds in one day at a class, with no leading...none, nada, zip. Lots of smoke, though.

Going back to the OP - Go with another powder (Unique is an excellent choice, and underappreciated, or maybe just unfashionable) and load toward the middle of the range and maybe higher. Measure your crimp at the case mouth and keep it in the .421" area. This oughta help.

[Jman]

Thanks to all for great information on the merits of Unique and lead bullets. My attempt to explain it would have been...um lacking. All I can add is the obvious. A quality hard cast bullet and Unique are tough to beat in almost any caliber. I ran into it by accident back in the "olden" days. I trashed my Colt Python and Dan Wesson 357 Mag barrels. Lead bullets, Bullseye and 2400 do that. Different story with even the old nasty dirty Unique. Little or no fouling and smoke. Used it for everything.

Jim