.223 Rem case gauge

[ErikW]

I'm trying to re-set up my 650 for .223, trying to get the sizing die adjusted right for the headspace.

It turns out the majority of my brass (once-fired S&B, twice-fired LC) gauges perfectly in the Wilson gauge before sizing. What's up with that? Most of this brass was shot through my custom upper, which I guess has a tight chamber. But no resizing necessary? Can this be possible? Am I doing something wrong?

Another thing, my Lee full length sizing die won't fit on the 650 toolhead (not enough threads for lockring) so I'm using my RCBS X-die. Any problem with that? I'm not doing the extra trimming, I just want to load it, shoot it, and leave the brass behind.

I'm setting it up with only the sizing die in its own toolhead so I can blast through sizing all the cases. Then I'll clean them again to get the lube off, and gauge them. Then I'll put the full toolhead on with a neck sizing die (which will decap walnut media from the flash hole/primer pocket) and load them up.

[EricW]

Erik,

Your experience mirrors mine.  I have a very tight chamber as well, which means I have to have my size die *absolutely* bottomed out.  I might even grind the base off the die 0.010" or so just for feed reliability.  Still, very little "sizing" takes place.  For me, sizing still has to happen otherwise my AR death jams like no tomorrow.

Lee Dies are a bear.  (Unfortunately, they're the only game in town for certain goofy calibers.)  You may have to do something really crazy like put the locknut on the underside of the toolhead to lock the die in.  Not convenient, but it works.  

LC Brass is hard as hell, so I'm not surprised it doesn't stretch much on firing.  Do watch for cracked necks, though.  I get a ton of fallout on the second or third firing through my LC brass.  Then things seem to stabilize and the cracks are much less frequent.

E

[George]

My .02 worth

I used to use RCBS & Lee .223 dies too. I switched to Dillon dies for all my .223 loading last year. I also used to use the L.E Wilson .223 SAAMI ammo gauge but stopped trusting it for match ammo after I had some malfunctions in my open rifle that traced back to oversized cases. The gauge that I use now is the JP Enterprises one. It is cut to minimum SAAMI dimensions. In my experience, ammo that drops in & out of it will function in most anything.

I set the Dillon sizing dies to just contact the shell plate (RL-550) and the crank them in an additional 1/4 turn. About 95% of cases pass the JP gauge with this setting. Any less and it starts to get nearer to 50%. I firmly believe that semi-auto rifle cases should be full length resized every time you load them. Function is (just about) everything!

I also taper crimp with the Dillon die (just a little). To get the best crimp results I chamfer the outside of the case mouth at 45 degrees with an RCBS de-burring tool, and then ream the inside of the case mouth with a Lyman VLD reamer. These extra steps give me a very polite crimp that (I believe) seems to strike the best balance between accuracy and safety concerns. The hand work on the case mouths also gives me a good feel for cases that have odd wall thickness and gives me a chance to weed them out prior to loading.

I use the Scharch Mfg. 100% processed 1x LC brass and have been getting very good results with these methods. BTW, I hit the cases with a little bit of the Dillon lube and run them right through the press in one pass just like pistol loading. When I do the final gauging of my match ammo, I wipe the lube residue off by hand to keep them from being a little tacky. Practice ammo I just shoot it like it is. I have had no problems with this lube & load method for about the past two years.

I use 1x cases for all my match ammo. Whatever I get back is the loaded once more as 55gr ball practice ammo and then not picked up after the second (third, actually) firing. I used to load my WW cases 4-5 times for Hi-Power, but that is a different story, and different brass. I also agree with LC cases not liking to be worked a lot of times.

(Edited by George at 2:02 pm on Nov. 4, 2002)

[George]

Concerning fired cases fitting in ammo gauges without re-sizing. I have noticed that fired cases from my Colt HBAR (NATO 5.56mm Chamber) will not fit back into the L.E. Wilson ammo gauge (.223 SAAMI). In fact they stop about halfway in.

Only about 30-40% of fired cases from my JP open rifle will fit back in the JP gauge (the ones that go in are a real tight fit at the base). Cases fired in the JP rifle will always check OK in the Wilson gauge without any resizing.

I have an Eagle EA-15 upper that has a fairly tight chamber and fired cases from it consistently stop about a 1/4" from fully seated in the JP gauge. But they will also almost always fully drop into the Wilson gauge.

This tells me that full length re-sizing is the hot ticket, and that the L.E. Wilson gauge is cut closer to the SAAMI maximum than the minimum.

BTW, almost all factory ball that I have checked is a nice fit in the JP, and a very loose easy fit in the Wilson. I also find about 1-2 per hundred in factory ball that will not fully drop in the JP gauge. And I have even found a couple of factory rounds that wouldn't check in the Wilson gauge (about 1 in 500). The moral here is to get an ammo gauge that reflects YOUR chamber, and then religiously check everything before firing. I can not tell you how often I see fellow shooters loading factory ball into mags at big matches right from unopened boxes. It only takes one bad round to ruin your whole day.

[ErikW]

Well that's all fine and dandy, but the Wilson is a cartridge headspace and case length gauge. My concern was about the headspace.

[George]

If a case seats fully in a gauge, it is resting against the shoulder and the headspace is correct. If it does not seat fully in the gauge, it can be for several reasons.

1. Base Bulge (most likely In My Experience)

2. Grit & Grime In The Gauge (next most likely IME)

3. Out Of Round Mouth

4. Too Little Headspace (least likely IME)

If a fired case drops back into the gauge flush, then your rifles headspace is pretty close to right on. This does not negate the need for full length re-sizing to prevent problems due to item #1 above.

If a re-sized case seats too deep (head below flush or limit marking) then you have too much headspace and a problem with your die. The fastest way to get this problem is to trim the die base to get more sizing. Trimming the underside of the die should only be done if you need more headspace, not more base/wall sizing.

I have found all of the dies that I have used (Lee, RCBS & Dillon) will consistently give correct headspace if they are set to just contact the shell plate. Adding more pressure (1/8 - 1/4 turn) at this point just gives a little more sizing to the base in my experience, and does not measurably increase the headspace once firm contact with the shell plate is made.

I consider case diameter to be the most important dimension for reliable functioning. OAL takes #2 on my list of function concerns. Headspace will almost never be an issue if sizing dies are set properly and your rifles headspace is within specification (chamber shoulder to bolt face distance).

Putting an even coating of stamp pad ink on the head and shoulder of a properly sized dummy round and pushing it into the chamber and then dropping the bolt on it will give you a good indication of your rifle/ammo headspace situation. In a perfect world, the ink will show even to minimal chamber/bolt contact on the shoulder and head of the case. If you get no contact indication at all, or excess contact indication (shoulder dents & thin/bare spots etc.), then you just might have a problem.

An ammo gauge will not tell you if the headspace in YOUR chamber is absolutely OK. Only a contact test (as described above), or a real headspace gauge (Stoney Point) will tell you that. An ammo gauge is best used in conjunction with an actual test/measurement of your rifle chamber.

BTW, NATO chambers are going to typically have more headspace, and be a bit looser in dimension than SAAMI chambers.

Safety Note: A tiny (I stress tiny) bit of headspace variance is not a really big deal, but having a little more is usually better than a little less.

A large amount too much can leave the round loosely hanging from the extractor after chambering. This is not a real, real bad thing. In most cases it just fire-forms the case shoulder a bit more than usual and degrades accuracy. It can also be a cause of light primer strikes (A tight fitting extractor can mask this problem).

A severe headspace shortage is definitely bad news and usually results in a complete failure to go into battery. It can also allow an out of battery firing situation in some rare cases.

(Edited by George at 5:53 pm on Nov. 4, 2002)

(Edited by George at 6:38 pm on Nov. 4, 2002)

[old john]

great information! I just started loading 223 in a 550b with dillon dies for semi auto.(thanks for the discount Brian) I am having problems with the 223 shell case not holding erect and the depriming pin striking the top of the case and not allowing it to slide into the die1/3 of the time??. This problem slows the production down to a slow crawl. any suggestions on adjusting the sizing die or cartridge spring. The shell plate is #3 with 3 pins but the case feels loose in it! This is not a problem when loading 9's or 40's for pistols.

for head space (question @hand) i am running .003 and it feeds great expands .003/4 and is ready to resize. no length problems after two fireings.

[EricW]

Old John,

Your shell plate is too loose.  Tighten down the main bolt so that the shell plate is held snugly to the platen, then back it off *just enough* so the shell plate rotates without much resistance.  It should just "snick" into the next detent when you advance it.  One thing I did was to make a teflon washer that fit under the head of the bolt to take out some of the resistance.  That way I can get the plate a touch more snug w/o it feeling stiff when I advance to the next station.

Aside from the obvious operational difficulties, running with loose shellplate does nothing for accuracy.

Good luck!

E

[George]

Old John,

After tightening the shell plate as Eric mentioned, make sure that you reset the sizing die. Now that the shell plate is not wobbling the setting will be a little bit different.

As I mentioned earlier, running the shell plate all the way up and then threading the sizing die in until it contacts the shell plate will pretty much guarantee a properly sized round with the Dillon .223 die.

Trim length is 1.75". They can be a little bit longer, or shorter. What is important is that they are all the same length (or real close). Variances in length reduce accuracy and cause inconsistent crimping.

I only fire my brass twice nowadays. Since I start with a uniform length and use the second firing as practice ammo I don't worry about trimming anymore. I used to go 5-6 firings with my Hi-Power cases (WW Brass) and they would need trimming after every other firing. Now I just leave them on the range after the second firing and let someone else do all of the work it takes to fire them again.

The Scharch Manufacturing 1x, 100% processed brass is a very good deal at $39/thousand. http://www.scharch.com/

(Edited by George at 11:02 am on Nov. 9, 2002)

[Edmond]

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Quote: from EricW on 10:56 pm on Oct. 31, 2002

Erik,

LC Brass is hard as hell, so I'm not surprised it doesn't stretch much on firing.  Do watch for cracked necks, though.  I get a ton of fallout on the second or third firing through my LC brass.  Then things seem to stabilize and the cracks are much less frequent.

E

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    Hi, I experienced it with LC cases too. what I did is annealing, I installed the cases up in a plastic box containing 1  " of water, I heated the necks with a flame and made them fall in the water when I started to get a discoloration, after this operation , no more split necks. HTH

[old john]

thanks ericw & george,

i have readjusted the dillon and it's rocking now. head space is .oo3. i hope to use the brass several times since i am loading very light for speed shooting paper. is the scarch brass all commerical & what seems to be the predominate manufactor? thanks again for the help. old john

[EricW]

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Quote: from old john on 9:42 am on Nov. 10, 2002

. is the scarch brass all commerical & what seems to be the predominate manufactor?

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What is "scarch?"  

Loaded moderately, any quality rifle brass seems to last a good long time.  Lake City Armory brass is cheap and available...and provides decent consistency.  No clue as to what the predominate headstamp is.

E

[George]

http://www.scharch.com/

The Scharch 1x brass is about 99% LC of recent vintage. Usually 70-80% same headstamp. The 100% processed Scharch brass is a perfect diameter fit in my L.E. Wilson gauge, but is a little tight (base area only) in my JP gauge. The out of box Scharch brass reads near the top of the L.E. Wilson headspace indicator notch (.004 deep notch). Fired brass from my JP open rifle drops in right at, or just barely above the bottom of the headspace indicator notch in the Wilson gauge. When I set my Dillon sizing die to give me enough base sizing to get less than 5% rejects in my JP gauge, I wind up with about .001 more depth in the Wilson headspace indicator after sizing. This gives me a perfect fit when I slam test a sized case in my JP rifle. I get indications that I am running about .001 clearance (and maybe even a little less). This headspace setting assures functioning in all the rest of my rifles since they are known to be a little looser than the JP.

BTW, fired cases from my Colt HBAR-15 are usually a little too bulged to drop fully back into the Wilson gauge without forcing them, but the ones that will go in are at or near the top of the headspace indicator notch ( about .004 of shoulder expansion). The cases from my Eagle EA-15 split the difference (.002). This shows how much headspace can vary in different rifles and how important it is to set for the worst case.

Glenn Zediker (author of "The Competitive AR-15 & Handloading For Competition) ( http://www.zediker.com/ )  says that .0015 - .002 is a good amount of setback if you are going to use cases in the same rifle. I am having no problems from like .0009 up to to .004. The important thing here is to make sure that you size for the tightest chamber you will shoot the ammo in. More is better than less for reliable functioning.

I always fully resized my WW High Power cases (.004, or more set back) and got 5 plus firings from them before I stopped using them. In fact I only stopped using them because I got tired of case trimming. I have no idea how many firings I might have gotten from them even with all of the brass working they were subjected to, but I am sure they would have gone at least a couple more firings.

I find the LC cases to be very similar to the WW cases I have used, maybe just a little harder/springier. I have yet to fire any LC cases more than 3 times (including the initial firing), so I can not speak to their longevity as I can to the WW cases. I have run through about 4000 of the Scharch 100% processed cases in the past year and a half ((that's about 6500 total firings after range losses). I only fire the Scharch 2 times because I am big time lazy and do not want to trim .223 anymore.

As far as size die setting goes, I have found that all of the dies that I have used will set cases back so that they drop flush with the bottom of the Wilson gauge, if they are set to firmly contact the Dillon 550 shell plate (just touching, plus 1/8-1/4 turn). I get the same results on my Rock Chucker with an even tighter setting (1/4-1/2 turn). The only difference I have noticed is that the Dillon dies seem to require less force and give me fewer cases with "base bulge" problems at the same time. For these reasons, I no longer use my RCBS or Lee dies. I especially like the Dillon "straight" crimp die. Warning, Do not set carbide sizing dies like this!!!

I do not like the Dillon seating die however. It marks my Sierra MatchKings in a thin line about halfway down the ogive. I switched to the Redding micrometer die for all my heavy bullet loadings and just use the Dillon seating die for my practice ball loads. The Redding Mircometer seating die also lets me use one toolhead for two different bullets because the settings are repeatable and I use the same powder under my 69 & 77 grain loadings.

IMHO Varget rocks as a heavy bullet propellant for .223, but AA 2520 meters a whole lot better in the Dillon and TYPICALLY replaces the same charge weight (not volume) of Varget under a heavy .223 bullet (one should always run tests to be sure).

Regards,

(Edited by George at 8:16 pm on Nov. 15, 2002)

(Edited by George at 8:24 pm on Nov. 15, 2002)

[Bronco]

Depending on how tight your chamber is headspace can be critical with as little as .002 to .003 differece in shoulder length locking the action up.  I've tried case guages and found them lacking  when setting dies.  I am currently using a Stoney Point headspace guage.  It fits on dial calipers and measures from the case head to the datum line on the shoulder.  You can set dies to your particular chamber or to factory specs.  Have used this with 223, 243, 308, 7mm. mag.  with great results.  Only runs around $35.00 available from Dillon, Midway, and others.

[George]

The L.E. Wilson drop in gauge will do a fine job if you check a fired case from the specific rifle you are loading for and adjust the die until you get about .002 setback. This is easy to see, as the Wilson headspace check step is .004 deep.

I definitely agree that the Stoney Point is indeed more precise, but you can measure the setback in the Wilson drop gauge quite well enough to be sure. In fact it can be measured very precisely with the depth gauge on a caliper.

The point to remember here is we are making a leap of faith by starting with the assumption that the fired brass is the same size as the chamber that it came out of. Then we add an extra bit of clearance and call it macaroni. Ther are a lot of little factors that can give you little differences, which are ok until they stack up in the wrong direction.

I still load some inked up dummies and check by slam chambering them as I mentioned earlier. It's the only way to be absolutely certain, as different brass has different springback properties and a fired case may not accurately reflect the specific rifle's actual chamber shoulder to bolt face clearance. This also assumes that you always use same brand brass, as mixed brass will skew the whole shebang due to different amounts of springback after firing, not to mention the malleability differences that will effect the re-sizing result.

--

Regards