Converting Witness to 357 Sig

[io_joe]

I've been wanting a Witness Elite Match for awhile now. For about $500, it seems like a lot of gun for the money. I've been thing about 38 Super, yet just realized that 357 Sig would likely work better for me. I already have a couple of 40s, and 357 Sig brass is plentiful since my local PD leaves it laying at the local range.

So, what needs to be done to have a Witness in 357 Sig (Assuming I start with a 40)? I know of no one who supplies an aftermarket barrel in 357. I assume that I'd need to buy a 9mm or 38 super barrel and have it reamed to 357. Are these assumptions valid?

[Duane Thomas]

Probably not the best idea in the world, sadly. The basic CZ-75 pattern has a well documented record of breaking slide stop pins when firing a Major caliber. We found this out hotrodding 9mm CZs in the early 1990s. I can't imagine .357 SIG ballistics being any easier on the gun.

[Carlos]

As you said, you will be starting with a 40, so there should not be any issues with durability. Even if so, the inexpensive EGW hardened slide stop will cure the problem.

Don't know, however, of a maker of .357Sig barrels. Maybe call Bar Sto? As long as you are OK with the capacity disadvantage in Open, or shooting Minor in Limited, the Sig would be viable and cheap in light of the free once-fired Sig brass you get.

I've been wanting a Witness Elite Match for awhile now. For about $500, it seems like a lot of gun for the money. I've been thing about 38 Super, yet just realized that 357 Sig would likely work better for me. I already have a couple of 40s, and 357 Sig brass is plentiful since my local PD leaves it laying at the local range.

So, what needs to be done to have a Witness in 357 Sig (Assuming I start with a 40)? I know of no one who supplies an aftermarket barrel in 357. I assume that I'd need to buy a 9mm or 38 super barrel and have it reamed to 357. Are these assumptions valid?

[Duane Thomas]

As you said, you will be starting with a 40, so there should not be any issues with durability.

I would expect the .40 S&W (especially if running some of the hot ammo available for this cartridge) to be really hard on a CZ-75, frankly. This is a Major caliber cartridge, and thus way beyond the power level of what the gun was originally designed to handle. Though it would be cool if replacing one inexpensive part could cure the problem. Any input from anyone out there who's put a lot of Major loaded .40 ammo through a CZ-75 pattern gun, either with the stock slide stop or the EGW replacement?

[Carlos]

As you said, you will be starting with a 40, so there should not be any issues with durability.

I would expect the .40 S&W (especially if running some of the hot ammo available for this cartridge) to be really hard on a CZ-75, frankly. This is a Major caliber cartridge, and thus way beyond the power level of what the gun was originally designed to handle. Though it would be cool if replacing one inexpensive part could cure the problem. Any input from anyone out there who's put a lot of Major loaded .40 ammo through a CZ-75 pattern gun, either with the stock slide stop or the EGW replacement?

Actually, I have:

I owned 2 CZ-75 Standard IPSC pistols, both in .40 cal from the factory. I sold one, the other is going full speed, and I have never broken a single slide stop in one (all ammo was major).

Moreover, Johny has been shooting one a lot longer than I have, and he has not experienced the slide-stop breakage problems that seemed to plague the old 175 to 180 - power factor P9s. Here is Johny's site:

StrictlyIPSC.com

Of course, although our guns are CZ-75s (see photo above it says CZ 75 right on the slide), they are much newer than the old P9s of the early 90s, and they are made by CZ in the Czech Republic (not Italy), and the frames they have are "intermediate" instead of the old small framed P9s. These are circa 1997 guns; newer ones are called "Tactical Sports" by CZ.

However, .40 cal 75s (by several makers) have been around for years BEFORE the IPSC/TS of 1997. The 40 cal CZs don't break slide stops like the did way back when. My Jericho 941F (aka baby desert eagle) is still on its first slide stop too - and its a small frame that was cast by Tanfoglio and finished in Isreal. It was one of the first in the country and it was designed for the 41AE - which was a hot for-runner of the .40.

I can understand why you'd assume slide stops would break when you wrote: " This is a Major caliber cartridge, and thus way beyond the power level of what the gun was originally designed to handle."

But my experience with all my 75s from different makers, plus the experience of many others here, proves that 75s don't break slide stops like they used to. And where its a problem (can't imagine where that might be with the lower PFs), EGW makes an inexpensive fix.

Regards,

d.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Carlos

[Dave Gundry]

The large frame Tanfoglio's don't (or don't seem to, in my experience) have issues with the slide stop pins.

[J-Ho]

Tanfoglio makes a 10mm on that same frame. My bet is you would be ok. I'm definitely no gunsmith, but maybe someone with experience could answer this. What about reaming a 9mm barrel out to make the .357sig?

[Al Capizzo]

I've got several of the small frame TZ - CZ clones. One in forty with two slides. I don't have an issue with slide stop pin breakage but rather with slides cracking. I really am convinced the small frame versions just can't handle major power loads, not for to long anyway.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71724

Edited November 18, 2008 by Al Capizzo

[Carlos]

I've got several of the small frame TZ - CZ clones. One in forty with two slides. I don't have an issue with slide stop pin breakage but rather with slides cracking. I really am convinced the small frame versions just can't handle major power loads, not for to long anyway.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71724

Thanks for the link Al! I remember that thread now. Any thoughts on whether the cracks you experienced were related to the very high slide velocity that the 75 design is known for? Regards,

d.

ps OP: you might take a look at one of the two specialized CZ forums (Angus has his own section on one of them) to see if anyone has done a CZ in .357.

[R.Elliott]

The whole problem of breaking slide stop pins comes from the old Springfield P9 guns. They linked down on the pins o of course they would snap. The newer Tanfoglio pistols link down on the frame, so they don't snap pins anymore. I'm shooting major .38 Super(comp) loads through both of my guns with no issues, and I know of no one shooting these guns who have broken a single pin.

[Al Capizzo]

I've got several of the small frame TZ - CZ clones. One in forty with two slides. I don't have an issue with slide stop pin breakage but rather with slides cracking. I really am convinced the small frame versions just can't handle major power loads, not for to long anyway.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71724

Thanks for the link Al! I remember that thread now. Any thoughts on whether the cracks you experienced were related to the very high slide velocity that the 75 design is known for? Regards,

d.

ps OP: you might take a look at one of the two specialized CZ forums (Angus has his own section on one of them) to see if anyone has done a CZ in .357.

Carlos,

I can only assume that high slide velocity is the reason for the slide failures. Again though, none of these slides are from guns shot with the original design's intended )9mm Parabelum (sp?) ammunition. One was on a .40 S&W, one from a 9x21, on in 9mm but I know there's been several thousand 9mm major rounds through it. If the Elite Match is a small frame gun, I'd recommend against the .357 Sig conversion.

[io_joe]

Thanks for the info. I hadn't heard of the slide stop breakage issue.

The Witness I am looking at is a large frame version, as mentioned by J-Ho and Krautwagen. It's offered in 9x19, 38 Super, 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45 ACP. I have heard that the 10mm version of the large frame witness has had issues in the past when using full power loads. I was originally thinking about a 38 Super, but I don't want to add another caliber right now.

Carlos: Who's this Angus you speak of? Is he on the CZ forum?