How exact do I need to be?

[kimmie]

Well, the press is up and running and thanks to everyone for all of your help and advice. I've made a load with the help of a friend from the club and used his recipe (he brought me all the ingredients so thats what I used) 5.3 of bullseye and berrys plated 230gr rn. I haven't shot it yet but I'm thinking it may be a little hot. I really want to try for a 170 pf. Should I go down to 5.1 or 5.2? I know, I should probably shoot it and see how it feels first, and then chrono it from my gun but I just wanted to get an idea of what folks thought. (I'm shooting a .45 S&W 1911 DK)After I've used up what he brought me, I'm going to try Clays since it seems to be a hands down winner on the forum.

Now, one more question. How exact do I need to be in my cartridge measurements? Lymans says 1.275 maximum OAL for .45acp. My factory Winchesters measure 1.262 and my round measures 1.268. The crimp on the Winchester is .471, mine is .470 and Lymans says .473.

Are these acceptable variations or do I need to be dead on?

Thanks again for all the help.

Donna

[bwit]

These variations are fine but find a length you like and stick with it for a given load. It also needs to feed well in your mags and gun. You should be able to easily keep your length variation better than this range; .013 [13/1000] from the longest to shortest. But it depends on your equipment and loading habits. I'd say plus or minus 2 thousanths, .002, is the best anyone could do in large progressively loaded batches. Remember making Overall Length shorter increases pressure - a lot.

Edited September 2, 2008 by bwit

[kimmie]

O.K. That makes me feel better. Sorry, but my caliper/math skills aren't great - does that mean anything from 1.275 down to 1.262 would be o.k? Not that I plan on going that short.

And thanks for explaining the increase in pressure. I like to know why and how things work the way they do. It makes it easier to know why I'm doing what I'm doing and why I should be doing what I'm doing! Plus - I'm very attached to my fingers and would like to keep them. All of them

Donna

[LPatterson]

With a .45 a major consideration is that it fit in the magazine without drag on the nose and does the round drop in the chamber. I run all my jacketed round nose at 1.250 because that is what a factory round measured. The HP's I just loaded have an OAL of 1.220 because the seating die uses the ogive (curve) of the bullet when seating. When I measure the bullet length and subtract that from the OAL, the HP and 3 different RN are being seated in the case within .003 of each other which keeps the volume the same.

A test with a single WST load and 4 different jacketed bullets had averages ranging from 726 to 760 FPS with the same bullet & 4 moon clips but the worst extreme spread for any moon was 40 FPS. The primary difference was group size and location on the target with the HP being the most accurate. Temperatures were in the 50's so the velocity may change if it ever warms up, like next summer. We now have this 4 letter word that starts with S and ends with W at about the 4500 foot level and I live at about the 3700 foot level.

[kimmie]

With a .45 a major consideration is that it fit in the magazine without drag on the nose and does the round drop in the chamber. I run all my jacketed round nose at 1.250 because that is what a factory round measured. The HP's I just loaded have an OAL of 1.220 because the seating die uses the ogive (curve) of the bullet when seating. When I measure the bullet length and subtract that from the OAL, the HP and 3 different RN are being seated in the case within .003 of each other which keeps the volume the same.

A test with a single WST load and 4 different jacketed bullets had averages ranging from 726 to 760 FPS with the same bullet & 4 moon clips but the worst extreme spread for any moon was 40 FPS. The primary difference was group size and location on the target with the HP being the most accurate. Temperatures were in the 50's so the velocity may change if it ever warms up, like next summer. We now have this 4 letter word that starts with S and ends with W at about the 4500 foot level and I live at about the 3700 foot level.

Again, I'm feeling better about the OAL variations - like I said, my factory Winchester is shorter and I see from another poster, he's even getting variations during one reload session. And I forgot all about the weather. Although I'm really a fair weather shooter so that 4 letter word s*****w shouldn't affect me and my velocities. I hope!

Thanks for the input.

Donna

[Graham Smith]

As a general rule...

A good way of doing this is to shoot some factory ammo and make sure that works for you. Then measure a few cartridges to see what length they are and use that as your marker. A small variation in OAL when you are loading is to be expected but it should not exceed the max OAL nor should it go much below your established OAL or you may have over-pressure problems. Also, too much shot to shot variation in OAL will give you inconsistent velocities.

Lastly, invest in a max cartridge gage (~$15)

[kimmie]

I guess that's what I've been doing - comparing my cases to Winchester which shoots great from my gun. I do have a case gauge and if the round doesn't slide right in - it gets discarded. Just didn't know how much room I had to play around with. Looks like I don't have to be super precise.

Sorry for repeating myself so much, but there seems to be so much conflicting info in the books from sizes to powder charges ! and I want to err on the side of caution. But still make major!!!!!!!!

[Boats]

Good things to have are a Dial Caliper and Micrometer. Used off Ebay they don't cost a lot. Avoid the new Chinese ones though. Mintouro-Japan makes a good one is is often seen used. Also at more money Starett or Brown & Sharpe.

Once you can measure O/A length and diameter keep a record of what works well in your pistol. For example I have two Colt 1911's using the same 200 gr SWC, one I load to 1.250 the other to 1.262. Way the cartridge fits the barrels leade is different gun to gun. You can paint the bullet with a magic marker chamber the round and marks will show what it's hitting when in place. Magizines are different too. the 1.250 load works a lot better in my Mec Gar mags than the longer loading. Longer rounds I use with Factory mags in the pistol that likes longer cartridges. I have recorded in my loading log size of factory loaded cases and the brass after fired. This is a good refrence when re-loading get it back to factory spec. Also keep a few dummy rounds to use when setting up my press. Case guages are great and and I use one too but it only shows go or no go, not what went wrong or needs to be changed/

Other thing I find handy is a small magnifier, mine is a 4x jeweler's loupe. That way I can watch the crimp very carefully. Make sure it's enough with nothing to hang on the feed ramp as the gun cycles.

All this sounds complicated but once you know the proper dims for your pistol it speeds things up a lot and insures reliability.

Boats

[kimmie]

Good things to have are a Dial Caliper and Micrometer. Used off Ebay they don't cost a lot. Avoid the new Chinese ones though. Mintouro-Japan makes a good one is is often seen used. Also at more money Starett or Brown & Sharpe.

Once you can measure O/A length and diameter keep a record of what works well in your pistol. For example I have two Colt 1911's using the same 200 gr SWC, one I load to 1.250 the other to 1.262. Way the cartridge fits the barrels leade is different gun to gun. You can paint the bullet with a magic marker chamber the round and marks will show what it's hitting when in place. Magizines are different too. the 1.250 load works a lot better in my Mec Gar mags than the longer loading. Longer rounds I use with Factory mags in the pistol that likes longer cartridges. I have recorded in my loading log size of factory loaded cases and the brass after fired. This is a good refrence when re-loading get it back to factory spec. Also keep a few dummy rounds to use when setting up my press. Case guages are great and and I use one too but it only shows go or no go, not what went wrong or needs to be changed/

Other thing I find handy is a small magnifier, mine is a 4x jeweler's loupe. That way I can watch the crimp very carefully. Make sure it's enough with nothing to hang on the feed ramp as the gun cycles.

All this sounds complicated but once you know the proper dims for your pistol it speeds things up a lot and insures reliability.

Boats

Thanks for the advise - this is what I need to know. There seems to be an acceptable variation in OAL and my 1.261 to 1.266 isn't bad. I guess the test is how they load in my gun. But Winchester factory works great and is 1.266. So I should be fine. I'll try the chamber test and see how that works. And my crimp is just a touch more than the book says. I guess my biggest fear is blowing my gun up!!!!

I do have digital calipers, digital and manual scale, and case gauge. What I do need now is a bullet puller for all of my experiments!!!!!!!! I guess practice does make perfect.

Donna

[Boats]

Kimmie

On the bullet pullers, I get along fine with a good pair of pliers. I put the round in the shell holder raise it up and under the top of my press without a die in the hole. Grab it and pull down on the handle. Comes right out. It does ruin the bullet but I suspect the inertia pullers ruin too, Particuarly if a lead cast bullet. Once crimped they are messed up anyway.

I should have answered you on the safety issue. It's true that a bullet deeper in the case raises pressure, but the little bit you tweak a 45 acp round to get it to fit the gun and magazines is not going to cause a problem.

Boats

[Rangerat]

The crimp on the Winchester is .471, mine is .470 and Lymans says .473.

Donna

Proper crimping for 45 ACP is only enough to remove the belling added to the case to accept the bullet. Proper neck tension to hold the bullet as it is being chambered by your S&W 1911 DK is provided by correct sizing of the brass.

[kimmie]

Thanks guys -

I think I'll still get the bullet puller as I don't want to have to take the die out.

As for all the other advise - wow am I learning a lot but it's all starting to make sense. I guess the only way I'll know is to actually shoot these babies - just wanted to make sure that I was going to keep all my fingers when I did. Been spending the last few weeks accumulating a large box of 'experiments' trying to fine tune the press. And it's sounding like a bit of variation is o.k. They fit my magazine and drop right into the .45 dillon gauge. The crimp looks good. Right now, I'm just trying to match my Winchester measurements, which shoot great from my gun.

I'll let you all know how it goes after my trip to the range!

Donna

[ALPHA's]

Well, the press is up and running and thanks to everyone for all of your help and advice. I've made a load with the help of a friend from the club and used his recipe (he brought me all the ingredients so thats what I used) 5.3 of bullseye and berrys plated 230gr rn. I haven't shot it yet but I'm thinking it may be a little hot. I really want to try for a 170 pf. Should I go down to 5.1 or 5.2? I know, I should probably shoot it and see how it feels first, and then chrono it from my gun but I just wanted to get an idea of what folks thought. (I'm shooting a .45 S&W 1911 DK)After I've used up what he brought me, I'm going to try Clays since it seems to be a hands down winner on the forum.

Now, one more question. How exact do I need to be in my cartridge measurements? Lymans says 1.275 maximum OAL for .45acp. My factory Winchesters measure 1.262 and my round measures 1.268. The crimp on the Winchester is .471, mine is .470 and Lymans says .473.

Are these acceptable variations or do I need to be dead on?

Thanks again for all the help.

Donna

I like to stay as close as i can to the specs. Because of saftey . Find the powder that burns consistent. Check your rounds through a chronograph.

so you can make small incremental adjustments for your powder charge.

[Boats]

Kimmie

On the crimp thats one thing I don't measure prefering to look at it through a 4x magnifier. I want mimimum just enough to make sure the case does not ride "hard" Up the feed ramp. As mentioned the cases size holds the bullet tight. Crimp does not need to be much.

On pulling again. Agree it's a lot of trouble to pull dies for one off jobs. I have two presses mounted side by side, Both old cast iron lymans, One is a rotary and has 6 holes keep it set for 9mm and 45 ACP most of the time. 2nd press is a old Lyman Spartan singe stage. Used at Gun shows they should not cost 25 bucks. It's real usefull for short jobs so you don't have to take your dies out of the main press.

Boats

[BCDan]

I've pulled a lot of bullets with my kinetic bullet puller, it does not damage the bullet and is very efficient at recovering the components. It's a valuable tool, especially when you make up 500 rounds for a new gun and the bullets won't cycle the action (don't ask). Kinetic pullers work great on straight-walled pistol ammo, especially with a tapered crimp. They even work ok on roll crimped ammo, like .38 special. It's an inexpensive tool to have on the bench when you exercise your learning curve.