help with 9mm minor loads and 231 powder...

[4570]

I could use some help with 9mm minor loads and 231 powder and 124g FMJ bullets.

I have a new CZ sp01 shadow.

At 4.5 g 231 average speed is 939 FPS.

At 4.8 g 231 average speed is 1027 FPS.

4.8g of 231 gave no signs of over pressure. But I am concerned this may too hot for my new gun as a practice round.

Advice given is to try a slower powder.

But VV 320 and titegroup are very popular and also faster, correct? So I am confused here re what powder to buy next for my practice rounds and IPSC minor.

VV 3N37 or VV 350 are slower but, it seems not as popular for 9mm as the faster powders.

Any advice welcome.

[Flexmoney]

What does your reloading manual say?

[revchuck]

The most recent Hodgdon data lists 4.8 grains as the max load with a 125 grain Sierra FMJ seated to 1.09" OAL. The pressure they list is way below SAAMI max pressure, and the bullet is seated unusually deeply. If you're loading to a longer OAL, you're generating less pressure, and at any rate the load is safe and way below beat-up-the-gun level. 231 burns more cleanly at higher pressures too.

Here's the link to the data: http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

[4570]

Yes I was loading them to 1.09"

It seemed the loads using 2312 gave about min PF using the max load of 4.8.

The manual said the speed should be higher.

Could sombody explain this???

What powder should I try next?

[00bullitt]

Win 231 should work just fine for you. Actual velocity and manual visted velocity are rarely the same. The manual may have used a different gun with longer barrel. Bullet types also vary velocity greatly. Your CZ barrel could be slow too.

I have loaded 4.8 grains of 231 with a Montana Gold JHP and gotten 1030-1040 out of my G34 with Bar Slo barrel.

I would continue to load what you are with no worries. With the SP01,pay attention to OAL. Those mags are sensitive to loading long. I would stay under 1.140". I actually prefer to load my 9mm JHP's to 1.120" and my round nose stuff to 1.135"

I have also had great luck with WSF. It is very clean and extremely accurate in 9mm. Start at 4.5 grains and work up to PF with WSF in your CZ if you decide to change.

[buddy_fuentes]

Winchester has a free pamphlet and it list their powders and the charges for different powders and bullets. I find the info very conservative.

They list a 124 grain FMJ with WW231 Powder at 4.2=1005

4.5=1060. The pressures listed are low, too.

It sounds like from these figures, that your load is pretty soft, too.

Buddy

[tac_driver]

Winchester has a free pamphlet and it list their powders and the charges for different powders and bullets. I find the info very conservative.

They list a 124 grain FMJ with WW231 Powder at 4.2=1005

4.5=1060. The pressures listed are low, too.

It sounds like from these figures, that your load is pretty soft, too.

Buddy

Do you have a url for that free win load data pamphlet?

I looked on the win site and it always redirects to the hodgdon site.

[scirocco38s]

I have had a load for years that I used with 231 until I shot the whole 8lb keg up. I used the same load for 115, 124,125 fmj or jhps, it was 5.7g of 231 loaded at factory length, and I have even used that same load in a 38 super limited gun and it shoots really soft. It make minor in the 9 around 135pf and in the 38 super it was just barely 125. I still have about 2k of that load in an ammo box and use it whenever I need a general practice round or am going to shoot a non-uspsa match. 231 is a good powder, but a little dirty.

[4570]

Could I get some advice on the following 3 questions...

If a loads reads: 4.0g of a powder gives 950fps and max load of 5.0g gives 1060fps at 20000psi.

So I work up to 5.0g and shoot a string of 10 rounds.

I drop the highest and lowest #'s and average the other 8.

Average speed is 990fps.

The test barrel in the load data is 4.0"

My barrel is 4.5"

I am well stocked with 124g FMJ's so want to stay with them for a while.

I can use up the 231 with my 45 ACP, no problems.

I am happy to try another powder if I knew which way to go.

1) Do I assume my pressure is proportionally lower and with 5.0g of 231 could safely work up to say 1140fps?

2) Should I try a slower powder?

3) Should I try a more popular 9mm powder like TG or VV 320?

[HoMiE]

Could I get some advice on the following 3 questions...

If a loads reads: 4.0g of a powder gives 950fps and max load of 5.0g gives 1060fps at 20000psi.

So I work up to 5.0g and shoot a string of 10 rounds.

I drop the highest and lowest #'s and average the other 8.

Average speed is 990fps.

The test barrel in the load data is 4.0"

My barrel is 4.5"

I am well stocked with 124g FMJ's so want to stay with them for a while.

I can use up the 231 with my 45 ACP, no problems.

I am happy to try another powder if I knew which way to go.

1) Do I assume my pressure is proportionally lower and with 5.0g of 231 could safely work up to say 1140fps?

2) Should I try a slower powder?

3) Should I try a more popular 9mm powder like TG or VV 320?

Try WSF, you can get more velocity with less pressure and it is cleaner than 231. I load 4.8 gr. in a G34 with MG 124 JHPs, 1.145", 134PF

[revchuck]

4570 - Winchester no longer does its own data. Hodgdon does Winchester's data, and also has bought out IMR, so Hodgdon is doing IMR data as well. The data on the Hodgdon site is the most recent.

It's unusual to get velocities close to what the reloading manual shows. There are numerous reasons for this - different brand bullets of the same weight will give different velocities from a given gun; there are minor variations among lots of the same bullets, brass, powder and primers; you may have a "slow" or a "fast" barrel; your barrel may be a different length than the pressure barrel. Also, pressure barrels are made to absolute minimum industry dimensions for that caliber, which tends produce higher velocity. Just like you, most of us find that we get lower velocities than the load data indicates. That's why we use chronographs, and why we've all gone through what you're experiencing now.

Titegroup works very well in 9x19 with 124-125 grain jacketed bullets. Most of us use 4.2 grains or so; the max load in the manual is 4.4. In my CZ-75B, this load with Zero 125 grain JHPs loaded to 1.14" runs about 1050 fps.

[DougCarden]

Win 231 is one of the most accurate mid bore powders made, period. It works really well with 9x19. just work your load up and watch for pressure signs. There is a wealth of data for W231 on the internet and in loading manuals. You will be hard pressed to find a more accurate powder. I did use TG, but dont now due to the high Nitro content.

If you want to try another powder, by all means do, but you dont "HAVE" to .....another to try is Alliant Powerpistol, which was designed for NATO 9x19 ammo, and Ramshot silhouette as well. WSF is another great powder too.

Have fun, be safe!

DougC

[buddy_fuentes]

I have tried most of the powders that others have mentioned. I always go back to 231. As Doug said, you'll be hard pressed to find a more accurate load than you can develop with 231. I still have those other powders stored in my storage room and most are almost full.

A mistake many new reloaders make is to try to squeeze every bit of velocity out of the cartridge as possible. Rarely will that give you an accurate load. It just has more POP and also stress on your guns.

I load for forty and nine mostly, but have loaded a zillion forty-fives and 9x23's. I have found very good results using ww231 with each. My forty Limited is loaded with VV 320, but believe me I have tried 231. It works good, however, the 320 is what I like the best for that gun. A fired case will fit in a case gauge without problems when I use 320.

I find that most of the loading manuals are conservative and can be exceeded if needed. Just read pressure signs and use a chronograph to guide your loads.

The pamphlets I have came from local reloading stores. They get them from the manufacturer and give them away.

Buddy

[Patrick Sweeney]

Most powders are quite "linear" in their mid-range ballistics. In the middle fo the pressure range, go up a modest amount of velocity, and you've gone up a modest amount of pressure.

Your load is at the 20,000 PSI leverl. Since the red line is 34,000, you've got a lot of room. Also, 231 is not a powder known for nasty surprise when you get to the top end.

So don't worry, load for your gun to be accurate and make Minor, and then assemble buckets of that load.

[96Brigadier]

I load 4.4 grains of W231 in my wife's SP-01 Shadow, 1.125 OAL for a 131 power factor.

[toymaker]

I use 5.8gr HS-6 for 9mm. Coal 1.010. 1.24gr Space Coast RN. Nice target round. I use 231 for .357 magnum.