mpolans Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 For the shooters who have shot here and over in Germany, France, Belgium, Austria, etc., is it me, or are the courses of fire a lot cooler over there? Granted, it's been about 10 years since I last shot in Europe, but it's seems that my memories of even our monthly club matches in Heidelberg, Germany were head and shoulders above anything I've seen in the U.S. short of something like an Area championship or US Nationals. Creative courses of fire, difficult shots at distances longer than 15-20 yards, multiple methods of solving a problem, a good challenging Standard Exercise stage. . . these are all things I haven't seen much of since my days overseas. For those that have shot overseas lately, have things changed over there? Has it gotten "easier" like things are over here? What do y'all think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Hi, I'm an IPSC Production Division Shooter in the Netherlands and have only shot matches in the Netherlands so far. So I don't know very much about other European Countries nor shooting in the USA. One thing though is that I can acknowledge that I regularly encounter targets at distances up to say 30 yards, and sometimes even more than that. But I know that some other Dutch shooters who shoot Internationally read this forum too, so maybe they can give some more insight. Best Regards, Arvid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I've never shot (not yet I hope ) a match in the US but I saw a lot of videos, and it clearly appears to me that "european" courses of fire are more difficult than in the US. But I can only speak for the different matches I saw ! There must be some matches that looks pretty much like ours. Greater distance, lower rounds count, many different ways to solve the problems . I've shot in Switzerland, Germany (European Championship) , Spain (National ), France of course (both "area"matches and Nationals )and South Africa (WorldShoot) and the best match I've shot so far is this year's Open / Modified French Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 Do they still have matches in places like Arras, France; Liege, Belgium; and Heidelberg, Germany? Does anyone know if Johannes Blazichek, Heribert Betterman, Andreas Mankel, Bernd Winter, Peter Bitz, Dr. Raija Smed-Hilman (sp?), Gabriella Glaser (Kraushofer?) are still shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I know Heribert is still shooting, so does Gabrielle Kraushoffer. There are still some matches in Arras, but i can't say for the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 I travel to Canada a great deal to shoot. The courses of fire at a Provincial or National Championship are a great deal more challenging in terms of distance and accuracy than those I experience in the Eastern U.S. If you want to go to a really challenging match that's well run...Try a Canadian Nationals. You won't be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 boy, what warped time hole did you emerge from??? Arras occasionally still has level 3 matches but they didn't like us shooting up towards the passing strolling pedestrians.... Liege/Battice still has an active IPSC group, but they shoot in a little container next to the fortress The US base in Heidelberg does not hold public IPSC matches any more. Andreas Mankel long stopped shooting IPSC, Bernd (I think) still does... Europe (though it varies greatly regionally!) has more stages with less rounds and more difficulty (both shooting and non-shooting), the US fewer stages with high round count, little or no non-shooting (physical or otherwise) challenges and easy targets. Everything where some moron could possibly AD is avoided at all cost (fear of litigation!!!). But then, unloading 40+ rds on arm-length distance targets *is* fun!!! --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Dang, and just when I was thinking of trying to drag a blaster into Germany on my next visit ---- I was born in and my brother lives just outside of Heidelberg..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Hi Nik, Does it have to be Heidelberg ? Friends of mine regularly shoot matches in Düsseldorf, and I know that Germany is generally very active in IPSC. If you can (still) read German, you could have a look at this German IPSC forum: http://www.ipsc-forum.de/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi . Best regards, Arvid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GvU Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 I only shot one local match in the US and that was a reasonable match (Frederickburg, Virginia) 5 or 6 stages, more rounds than a 5 or 6 stage match in the Netherlands. I've seen some footage of the bigger matches including the Florida open, and I would say anything like easier or more difficult. I do shoot a couple of European matches a year and they seem different. More short and medium course. I guess the IPSC recommendations are followed a bit closer. But even in Europe the competitors seem to prefer bigger stages. More thinking in the stages, well I think it all depends on the amount of effort put into a match. Longer distances depends more on the match, what kind of ranges are available, maybe local "customs", certainly the (twisted?) mind of the designer of the stage. Best matches I've shot in Europe. Various Swiss matches (level 3), usually very rewarding especially the Solothurn matches (like no penalty targets and your call from where to engage the targets). To bad they didn't organise one the last two years. Various European championships (except to many (low) windows in Germany), a couple of matches in France (Med cup), Eastern Europe (Slovakian Mosquito match and Hungarian Mag ICS). The CEO (Czech Euro Open) is very open terrain sumtimes with drastically reduced safety angles, this year 40 stages and 650 rounds, how about roundcount, but there will be a lot of short courses!). Arras, they don't shoot in the park anymore, most of it is indoors in an old fort, talk about noise. Last time I was there the air-circulation was virtually non-existant, but I haven't seen any match (L3) there for the last 2 years. The last 7 years I've been involved in organising the Dutch Open in the Netherlands, this year again and there are usually 12 stages for about 200 rounds. Usually I design a lot of the stages, this year nobody came forward with stages, so I had to take care of all, I think this years match will be a challenge again. If you're interested you should monitor our home-page: Dutch Open I'll have to urge Dave again to publish the stages. There is even a home-page that has tons of photos and video's on shooting in Europe including most Dutch Opens PHOTO. I would say, see for yourself. As the Netherlands are densly populated, there are not many outdoor ranges, so most of this match is shot indoors. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted June 19, 2003 Author Share Posted June 19, 2003 boy, what warped time hole did you emerge from??? Arras occasionally still has level 3 matches but they didn't like us shooting up towards the passing strolling pedestrians.... Liege/Battice still has an active IPSC group, but they shoot in a little container next to the fortress The US base in Heidelberg does not hold public IPSC matches any more. Andreas Mankel long stopped shooting IPSC, Bernd (I think) still does...Europe (though it varies greatly regionally!) has more stages with less rounds and more difficulty (both shooting and non-shooting), the US fewer stages with high round count, little or no non-shooting (physical or otherwise) challenges and easy targets. Everything where some moron could possibly AD is avoided at all cost (fear of litigation!!!). But then, unloading 40+ rds on arm-length distance targets *is* fun!!! --Detlef 1992. That was when my dad got transferred from Heidelberg, Germany to Tokyo, Japan. I remember it used to be a lot of fun driving all over western Europe to hit some of the matches. The match I went to in Arras was just AMAZING. I think only a few stages were outisde, most were in the caves, where there was practically zero ventilation. We were coughing up black crap every time we came out of them. I remember in Liege, the main place to shoot was in a big abandoned rock quarry. It's a shame that Heidelberg Rod and Gun doesn't hold matches anymore . . . they used to be the best in Germany. It's a bummer that Andreas quit too. He was incredible! THis guy went from be in a skeet shooter with virtually no handgun experience to being an internationally competitive IPSC shooter in about 2 years! And we has the nicest guy around, with a great sense of humor. Anyone know why he quit? Do I know you? I'm Mark Polansky II. Back then, I think I was the only goofy looking 12 year old American shooting IPSC in europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Garfield, Heidelberg would be easiest --- since my brother still lives in Neckargemuend, just outside of there, but Duesseldorf might be doable. Thanks for the link, I'll check that out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A33435 Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Nick i shoot at least 4 matches a year in Dusseldorf But i prefer shooting in Lauf, near Nurnberg, they have several level III matches a year. Check out http://www.ironhands.de/ Greetings Adrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 I concur with some other comments here that the Arras matches were superb. The stages in the tunnels were awesome. Shooting in the park was, shall we say, novel. And then there was going to the club toilets with people blasting JUST outside!!! They had to put steel up against the window "just in case". I had a lot of fun at the matches I went to there and it was only 4.5 hours from home in England. Is there anyone from this Forum who was there the year that the spectator stand collapsed? Was that intense for a while or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 no, I wasn't there that year. But I was standing close to where a 38sup came through the fortress wall from the adjacent range, zipped through the room packed with people, miraculously not striking anyone.... yeah, those were the good times....and I do remember the toilets (oohps: "bathrooms" in the US ) where they were blasting away a few y away. Short of the WS and the Euro Champs, Arras & Metz were the best matches I ever shot... Dunno whether I know you, Mark, I last shot in Heidelberg ....1993 I think... Btw. I am sure that there are IPSC clubs in and around Heidelberg, they're just not using the Rod&Gun any more. Go to www.ipsc.de, you can contact people from that area via e-mails listed there. --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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