Leitner-Wise rifles

[epault]

Has anyone tried these? are they worth the price?

[00bullitt]

They are no longer Leitner Wise but still use the acronym. The new name is Land Warfare Research Corporation. Yes......they are phenomenal rifles. I have a 10.5" SRT that runs like a scalded dawg. going on 6000k rounds with out cleaning. Just wiping the exterior. Runs clean and cool and trouble free.

[sideshowbob]

I have not handled one, but I hear they are nothing short of excellent. I have one on order. Check out their forum:

http://www.lwrifles.com/forum/index.php

[epault]

Where is the gas port on the barrel at 6", 9", or 12"? can you swap their barrel for any AR15 barrel? I've fired a HK416 a few times and remember alot of movement on the gun, more so then other 10" barreled ARs I've shot may be because of the tappet and rod adding to the moving parts.

[Mike P]

I have an upper in the M4 configuration and the recoil impulse is more pronounced than the HK that I have had the opportunity to fire. I feel like a good brake would be helpful, maybe on the next one. Still though, very good quality.

Mike

[00bullitt]

Where is the gas port on the barrel at 6", 9", or 12"? can you swap their barrel for any AR15 barrel? I've fired a HK416 a few times and remember alot of movement on the gun, more so then other 10" barreled ARs I've shot may be because of the tappet and rod adding to the moving parts.

Its a carbine length gas system(7"). Yes....you do feel the reciprocating tappet ever so slightly. It does not affect me at all. The only way you can really tell is to have a DI gun and a piston gun and swap off between the two. 5 rounds from one,5 rounds from the other. Repeat a couple of times. Its a very subtle difference to me. The added reliability is way worth the trade off to me. It is a self regulating piston so you have some bleedoff if there is overpressure. There is a port just behind the gas block that vents at a forward angle.

One way that I could tell the gun ran much better was when I run it suppressed. It kept running smoothly after 300 rounds. My DI gun would start to choke after about 250 rounds from the carbon baking to the gas rings and baking the bolt inside the carrier. It would eventually stop running and turn into a single shot that could barely be operated with the charging handle. And then it was not easy to clean. Sometimes requiring a blasting in the blast cabinet. Piston guns really shine when suppressed.

[USBP379]

I absolutely love my LWRC 14.5 inch upper. It has been solid with 2k through it so far. Eats Wolf ammo like Ted Kennedy at a Sunday Brunch, runs clean, shoots better than my JP at 100yards, with 68grain Black Hills. You can feel the difference between regular and piston. The piston is softer, to me.

I had a jamming P. O. S. - 14.5 POF upper that I could not get fixed to my satisfaction and the company were jerks about it. (Chris blamed my mags, my ammo, and my ignorance of the system.) While in Iraq, my buddy had 4 failures with POF 9.25 upper: 2 sheared op rods, 2 cracked gas blocks.

Whatever you do-DON'T BUY POF.

Also, I saw LMT's piston design at SHOT Show and I was very intrigued by it.

For now, though, my money is on LWRC piston system.

Now, as to whether or not they are worth the money? Well, I never had any malfunctions with the Colts that I carried professionally for the last 10 years. The whole Colt costs less than what an upper from LWRC does. You decide.

USBP379

[epault]

There is nothing wrong with the current AR/M4 platform. It is a robust system that has proven accurate and reliable. I'd say that I feel confident that I can go 1000 to 1500 rounds without cleaning, and 4000 to 5000 rounds with only taking out the bolt and BC and wiping them every 1000 rounds or so. However after those 5000 rd some of the parts may be so caked with carbon that its more cost efficient to replace them instead of clean them. Now this maintenance routine is for the action. If the barrel is neglected or not cleaned properly for more then a 1000 rd I think you will see a significant loss of accuracy. This accuracy loss will increase exponentially after every 1000 to 1500 rd without cleaning. If your AR is a noisemaker and you're not concerned with accuracy then blast away.

The piston system allows you to easily go 8000 to 10000 rd before you'll see maintenance related failures. This is going to cause excessive wear on the barrel if the fouling is not removed from the bore every 500 rd or so, reducing barrel life to say 10000 to 15000 rd as apposed to the 25000 to 30000 you mint see out of a chromemoly chrome lined barrel. So if you shoot your HK 416, LWRC, or POF to failure then you can change barrels as you clean the weapon. This low maintenance system is beneficial if you are a high round count shooter, like a shooting instructor, or your training routine consumes several thousands of rounds a week. This will allow you to focus on training and spend less time caring for your training aid (AR/M4).

As far as the mechanics of the system, there are some differences that I've seen with the models I've handled. Some are self regulating (only using the minimum amount of force to cycle the system no matter how much gas pressure is applied to the system) and some aren't. Some are a gas tappet system (like a M-14/M1A, FN FAL) and some are a true piston system ( like a AK47, SKS). Both tappet and piston systems have advantages and disadvantages.

In my opinion there is some performance lost with the tappet/piston systems. The shift of weight as the piston head and rod move the gun during cycle disrupting follow through, making recovery and second shots more time consuming. This movement during the shift of weight also may move the gun as the bullet is leaving the barrel, reducing the accuracy of the weapon. Also if the gas port is far enough back from the muzzle the system can begin unlocking and causing variations in gas pressure and loss of accuracy. This timing issue is also faced with the current gas impingement system on the AR/M4 series, however there has been 50 years of development to rectify the problem.

So if it is worth your dime to invest in the newer system then by all means spend it. But know that you are sacrificing a small bit of performance for increased reliability. After all when buying guns its not necessarily about what we need as much as what we want. YMMV

Paul

[jobob]

I've been shooting a POF 18" as my 3gun rifle for the past year+ with absolutely no problems. I highly recommend them! Runs clean, cool, accurate, and perfect reliability. USBP's post above is the first bad thing I've ever heard of POF.

A friend bought a used older model 16" POF that he had some feeding issues with. He sent it back to the factory, where they repaired it and updated it w/the new bolt carrier for no charge. It runs great now.