Open Vs. Limited Techniques

[benos]

This thread was lost before the conversion:

Open vs. Limited techniques

Erik Warren:

I've been kind of more interested in Open division lately and I'm pondering the differences between a comp gun and a stock gun. It seems my red-headed-stepchild foo-foo gun is going to require some different shooting techniques. Serendipitously, I was re-reading part of Practical Shooting Beyond Fundamentals wherein benos says you should let the comp gun do the work for you. He said to grip it differently (lighter?) than a stock gun.

Brian, you wrote that back in the day of single-stack Supers with dual-chamber (?) comps, Bo-Mars, W540 and AA#7. Would you write the same thing today with our modern guns, sights, and loads? Do the wide, flexy polymer grips, multi-chamber comps and ports, C-Mores, and Vihtavuori powders make a difference in shooting technique?

I'm a fairly accomplished Limited shooter with good recoil control and a good understand of what I need to see to shoot fast As. The first thing I noticed about my new Open gun is how much the grip affects the dot tracking. This may be the most important thing that lets me or prevents me from shooting fast, accurate shots. I've observed the height of the dot jump is affected by the weak hand grip. I've observed that how tightly I grip the gun affects whether the dot moves straight up and down or it bounces around on its way up and back.

How might you suggest I grip my Open gun? I use about a 60/40 weak/strong hand grip ratio on my Limited gun, and I'll relax my overall grip for better trigger control on the more difficult shots. Could this more relaxed grip be what you wrote about? Maybe I don't need to control all that muzzle flip so I should use the same 60/40 ratio but with overall less tightness or tension than my Limited gun?

benos:

Erik,

With all the new "stuff," what I said about the guns doing the work for you applies even more today. Today's open guns are incredibly efficient. Even the Stock guns are quite a bit more "manageable."

If you’ve shot automatics and revolvers, you’ve probably noticed that the auto tends to "recover itself," much more than a revolver, which has no self-recovery system whatsoever. Obviously, this is due to the cycling action of the auto. Because of this, the concept of "controlling recoil" with the auto becomes quite complex and highly "tunable," while the revolver basically just "kicks."

I'm not a believer in the 60/40, or 40/60 grip pressure approach. I just grip the thing, with both hands, without doing anything "extra." While it's true that it may help to think of it that way, I don't think that is what is actually happening. If we can agree on this - "controlling recoil" equates to pulling the pistol "back down" after the gun fires - then, try this: You'll need an unloaded pistol, your $80.00 Pelouze 250 lb. scale you use for weighing your suitcases after you stuff it full of ammo on your way to your next area match, and a table. Kneel down in front of the table and set your scale on the edge of the table so you can read the weight. Grip your pistol with your normal shooting grip, then release your grip with your weak hand, grip the pistol as tightly as possible with your strong hand, and see how hard you can push down on the scale (without losing or shifting your grip). Then, do the reverse: release your strong hand (take it completely off the pistol) and see how hard you can push the scale without losing your week hand grip. At this point you should be starting to see. But wait, there's more: again, grip the pistol with your normal shooting grip but without removing your strong hand, just relax it COMPLETELY, and grip as tightly as possible with your weak hand. Push on the scale—you'll notice that you can push harder than with just your weak hand, even though your strong hand isn't doing anything. Or is it? The strong hand plays the lead dog role in gripping the pistol because he gets to be in that best place of all—under the grip safety. Without introducing "gripping strength," recoil control is a function of leverage. (Do this experiment, don't just read it.)  

All this is not to say that you shouldn't think of gripping the pistol in the 40/60 routine. It may be an excellent way of getting the mind to release its tendency to strangle the life out of the pistol with the strong hand.

For me, I like to keep things, concepts, as simple as possible. In the realm of gripping the pistol, I like to think and feel it as one whole thing—that exists from the wrists forward.

Jerry Miculek, who has the strongest gripping strength of anyone I have ever met, once told me—(and this is a loose quote) "Most guys can’t shoot a revolver quickly because they try to squeeze the life out of it." The point is—it’s all relative, or subjective. See what you are doing.

be

Edited March 28, 2003 by Erik Warren

[Loves2Shoot]

I found a similiar experiment that convinced me of what BE stated. You don't need a scale though. Just take rou regular grip, then pull all of your stong hand fingers out from under your weak hand and let them flap in the wind. Then shoot a few mags through and you will see what you see. I won't try to describe it, because the experience speaks for itself. Don't worry about dropping the gun, I have seen a 12 year old do this with 180 PF .45.

[vetdocone]

This thread was lost before the conversion:Open vs. Limited techniquesErik Warren:I've been kind of more interested in Open division lately and I'm pondering the differences between a comp gun and a stock gun. It seems my red-headed-stepchild foo-foo gun is going to require some different shooting techniques. Serendipitously, I was re-reading part of Practical Shooting Beyond Fundamentals wherein benos says you should let the comp gun do the work for you. He said to grip it differently (lighter?) than a stock gun. Brian, you wrote that back in the day of single-stack Supers with dual-chamber (?) comps, Bo-Mars, W540 and AA#7. Would you write the same thing today with our modern guns, sights, and loads? Do the wide, flexy polymer grips, multi-chamber comps and ports, C-Mores, and Vihtavuori powders make a difference in shooting technique? I'm a fairly accomplished Limited shooter with good recoil control and a good understand of what I need to see to shoot fast As. The first thing I noticed about my new Open gun is how much the grip affects the dot tracking. This may be the most important thing that lets me or prevents me from shooting fast, accurate shots. I've observed the height of the dot jump is affected by the weak hand grip. I've observed that how tightly I grip the gun affects whether the dot moves straight up and down or it bounces around on its way up and back. How might you suggest I grip my Open gun? I use about a 60/40 weak/strong hand grip ratio on my Limited gun, and I'll relax my overall grip for better trigger control on the more difficult shots. Could this more relaxed grip be what you wrote about? Maybe I don't need to control all that muzzle flip so I should use the same 60/40 ratio but with overall less tightness or tension than my Limited gun? benos:Erik, With all the new "stuff," what I said about the guns doing the work for you applies even more today. Today's open guns are incredibly efficient. Even the Stock guns are quite a bit more "manageable." If you’ve shot automatics and revolvers, you’ve probably noticed that the auto tends to "recover itself," much more than a revolver, which has no self-recovery system whatsoever. Obviously, this is due to the cycling action of the auto. Because of this, the concept of "controlling recoil" with the auto becomes quite complex and highly "tunable," while the revolver basically just "kicks." I'm not a believer in the 60/40, or 40/60 grip pressure approach. I just grip the thing, with both hands, without doing anything "extra." While it's true that it may help to think of it that way, I don't think that is what is actually happening. If we can agree on this - "controlling recoil" equates to pulling the pistol "back down" after the gun fires - then, try this: You'll need an unloaded pistol, your $80.00 Pelouze 250 lb. scale you use for weighing your suitcases after you stuff it full of ammo on your way to your next area match, and a table. Kneel down in front of the table and set your scale on the edge of the table so you can read the weight. Grip your pistol with your normal shooting grip, then release your grip with your weak hand, grip the pistol as tightly as possible with your strong hand, and see how hard you can push down on the scale (without losing or shifting your grip). Then, do the reverse: release your strong hand (take it completely off the pistol) and see how hard you can push the scale without losing your week hand grip. At this point you should be starting to see. But wait, there's more: again, grip the pistol with your normal shooting grip but without removing your strong hand, just relax it COMPLETELY, and grip as tightly as possible with your weak hand. Push on the scale—you'll notice that you can push harder than with just your weak hand, even though your strong hand isn't doing anything. Or is it? The strong hand plays the lead dog role in gripping the pistol because he gets to be in that best place of all—under the grip safety. Without introducing "gripping strength," recoil control is a function of leverage. (Do this experiment, don't just read it.) All this is not to say that you shouldn't think of gripping the pistol in the 40/60 routine. It may be an excellent way of getting the mind to release its tendency to strangle the life out of the pistol with the strong hand. For me, I like to keep things, concepts, as simple as possible. In the realm of gripping the pistol, I like to think and feel it as one whole thing—that exists from the wrists forward. Jerry Miculek, who has the strongest gripping strength of anyone I have ever met, once told me—(and this is a loose quote) "Most guys can’t shoot a revolver quickly because they try to squeeze the life out of it." The point is—it’s all relative, or subjective. See what you are doing. be

[vetdocone]

Good read

[Biloxi23]

Resurrected after 11 years. Is this a record?

[benos]

Man, what a nightmare that was when the forums were crashing every day, back in 2003.

[tkheard]

I've felt your pain...

Edited April 9, 2014 by tkheard