Help with peened notches

[jtwilliams]

Hello All,

I’d like to call upon this vast pool of experience and knowledge for some help with my problem. I have a 625-6. It’s at S&W now for a throw by problem. It seems that I peen the notches in the cylinder really bad and they are going to have to replace the cylinder. I had the revolver into Smith about 18 months ago for the same problem and they replaced the cylinder then. They fixed it under warranty back then, not now. I like shooting the revolver, but I don’t think I’d like to spend $200 every 18 months to replace the cylinder.

So what are my options here. Would a Ti cylinder help? I know some of you use them to reduce torque. My problem is stopping the cylinder. Would a lighter cylinder be easier on the notches?

Any other ideals?

Thanks,

Jim

[Carmoney]

Jim, the thing that seems to cause the skipping is not so much that obvious peening on the off-side of the stop notches we all see on our stainless S&Ws but rather the nearly invisible ledge of "rebound peening" that tends to build up at the bottom end of the lead-in ramps. At full speed, those little ledges literally make the cylinder stop jump the notches like Evel Knievel.

You can use a round stone, some find sandpaper wrapped around a punch, or (easiest) a cratex point on a dremel tool, and carefully remove the ledges. Stick in a new MIM cylinder stop (plug and play) and spring for good measure, and I'd bet the problem is fixed.

[Waltermitty]

Hello All,

I’d like to call upon this vast pool of experience and knowledge for some help with my problem. I have a 625-6. It’s at S&W now for a throw by problem. It seems that I peen the notches in the cylinder really bad and they are going to have to replace the cylinder. I had the revolver into Smith about 18 months ago for the same problem and they replaced the cylinder then. They fixed it under warranty back then, not now. I like shooting the revolver, but I don’t think I’d like to spend $200 every 18 months to replace the cylinder.

So what are my options here. Would a Ti cylinder help? I know some of you use them to reduce torque. My problem is stopping the cylinder. Would a lighter cylinder be easier on the notches?

Any other ideals?

Thanks,

Jim

The Ti solved my problems with ruining cylinders and replacing stops so far.

[Carmoney]

They fixed it under warranty back then, not now.

What is their rationale for not fixing the problem under warranty this time?

[DougCarden]

Probably the same reason that they said my Revo was shot as well.....

DougC

[cheetahs]

I have over 80000 dry fires and 40000 rds live fire and never have had a problem

follow carmonys advice and take a look at your lead ramps and you cylinder lock.

Gary

[RogerT]

I think the way you operate the trigger is more important regarding the premature wear of the cylinder and cylinder stop, than the total number of trigger pulls performed.

In slow or semi fast operation my revolver worked fine, when really pushing it I got skipped chambers, the same chambers every time.

I changed the cylinder stop (thanks Round Gun Shooter) and de-burred the slots, both sides, and finally polished the "feed ramp" on every slot. Now it works fine again.

My gun (625-4, Model of 1989) I bought second hand so I have no real grasp on how much use it has, but the centre hole where the cylinder release pin locks the cylinder is visibly egg shaped and the cylinder itself is kind of "wobbly" in the front end, it has a significant radial play on the yoke bearing surface.

I don't dryfire a lot and shoot about 2-3 000 rounds yearly with it, and have done so for two years. I doubt the previous owner ever shoot that much at all so it probably has less than 10 000 rounds totally.

Edited May 15, 2007 by RogerT

[Waltermitty]

I think the way you operate the trigger is more important regarding the premature wear of the cylinder and cylinder stop, than the total number of trigger pulls performed.

{snip}

I agree with this 100%

I also think that a gun that is timed to be "early" on the cylinder lockup will have additional problems of this kind.

Does anybody else miss Randy Lee?

[Nemo]

Jim, the thing that seems to cause the skipping is not so much that obvious peening on the off-side of the stop notches we all see on our stainless S&Ws but rather the nearly invisible ledge of "rebound peening" that tends to build up at the bottom end of the lead-in ramps. At full speed, those little ledges literally make the cylinder stop jump the notches like Evel Knievel.

You can use a round stone, some find sandpaper wrapped around a punch, or (easiest) a cratex point on a dremel tool, and carefully remove the ledges. Stick in a new MIM cylinder stop (plug and play) and spring for good measure, and I'd bet the problem is fixed.

Mike,

Do you have photo of how that would look?

THX

[Carmoney]

Nemo, I'll try to get a photo of what I'm talking about and post it here, but I don't claim to be the greatest at close-up digital photography.

(Some folks just aren't going to be happy unless they throw $200 at a 20-cent problem.)

[hopalong]

I guess I'm lucky,

The very first 625 I started with is a 625-3 with the floating hand (just what we're not looking for in USPSA).

I have had Zero problems with the hand (and it is still in the gun) and am well past 150,000 rounds through it with only a couple of legs of the star broken.

I still use the gun even with the broke star (when I shoot revo) If iI don't shoot the 25-2

Yep it is pretty well worn out, but still shoots good enough to not hesitate to shoot even the nationals with.........but why chance it when you have a couple of 625s and a 25-2 that are begging to be shot.

Hop

[bountyhunter]

Hello All,

I’d like to call upon this vast pool of experience and knowledge for some help with my problem. I have a 625-6. It’s at S&W now for a throw by problem. It seems that I peen the notches in the cylinder really bad and they are going to have to replace the cylinder.

Any other ideals?

Thanks,

Jim

Here's one: the Kuhnhausen manual shows that the little "raised up ledge" can be forced back down. SW factory is just too lazy to do it when they would rather sell you a new cylinder.

If they are going to throw that cylinder away anyhow, you could try "down peening" the raised meatl with a flat faced punch and hammer. As the raised material is forced back down, the notch will narrow some.... probably not to where it was because some of the steel has been compressed by the edge peening of the cylinder stop bolt.

I also agree that if skipping is the problem, you can fix it by smoothing the lead in ramp edge.

A titanium cylinder might peen less because of increased hardness, but Ti has other problems like scratching and tempco. The different expansion rates of steel and Ti cause some revolvers to bind when they get hot.

Edited May 15, 2007 by bountyhunter

[jtwilliams]

They fixed it under warranty back then, not now.

What is their rationale for not fixing the problem under warranty this time?

Mike,

Sorry I haven't been on here for a couple of days.

When I first contacted S&W about my problem, the service rep told me that it shouldn't do that and would be repaired under warranty. They even sent me a mailing label to return it to the factory. Then I got the repair estimate in the mail, I was also having it converted to DA only and the hammer bobed, and they were charging me for a new cylinder. I called S&W back and the service rep I talked to this time said that it wasn't a factory defect, but heavy usage and they don't warranty heavy usage.

Thanks to all for your help.

Jim

Edited May 15, 2007 by jtwilliams

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I polish the edges of my cylinder stops so they are not sharp. I have never had peening on my cylinders. Guess I am just lucky or I don't shoot enough.

[Mooney]

You don't shoot enough.....

[Carmoney]

Then I got the repair estimate in the mail, I was also having it converted to DA only and the hammer bobed, and they were charging me for a new cylinder. I called S&W back and the service rep I talked to this time said that it wasn't a factory defect, but heavy usage and they don't warranty heavy usage.

OK guys, this is exactly why I now counsel people to avoid sending their revolvers back to S&W for service and custom work. There are a few people on this forum, and on the other competition forums (fora?), who always want to jump to the factory's defense when I say that. They always know some guy named "Milos" or "Frankie" or "Guido" (these are made up names offered only to make the point) who is the best revolversmith ever, blah, blah, blah. Some of these defenders have even been treated to special tours of the custom shop, etc. Yet those same voices become uncharacteristically silent when these threads pop up and irrefutably point out the piss-poor customer service that so many have experienced.

The cylinder peening is indeed related to heavy usage. It's also related to lousy metallurgy. I think it's disgraceful that S&W won't warranty the cylinder, particularly when Jim is paying good money for other "elective" custom work.

Jim, you might want to push the issue with them. Get to a supervisor, and tell him you and a whole bunch of your competition shooting buddies don't think you should have to pay for this problem.

(I wish Jerry would go to bat for us on this stuff........)

[Waltermitty]

{snip}

A titanium cylinder might peen less because of increased hardness, but Ti has other problems like scratching and tempco. The different expansion rates of steel and Ti cause some revolvers to bind when they get hot.

The Ti cylinder weighs 60% of the SS version so there is less mass to stop (and start). I destroyed one SS cylinder and a handful of stops in my first two years of shooting revolver in USPSA.

The SS cylinder S&W put in for me "bound up" because they apparently didn't gap the cylinder correctly and did not set the end shake. My experience is that no cylinder will bind up (hot or cold) if gapped and spaced correctly to the gun.

I have been running two Ti cylinders for well over two years now and haven't replaced a stop or been visited by skip chambers in that time while running factory MIM stops. I have not experienced scratching, chipping, peeling or unsightly ring-around-the collar. (Well, I might be exaggerating about the ring-around-the-collar).

I'm not trying to sell Ti cylinders and I certainly won't claim the SS cylinder(s) I had trouble with weren't soft, I'll also admit my trigger techique may well be a contributing problem.

I'll also report that my original plan to deal with peening on SS cylinders was to buy a blue steel cylinder and have it hard chromed (just like I used to do my semi-autos) to try to get more life out of the cylinder under hard use. I still think that idea may have merit.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Some of these defenders have even been treated to special tours of the custom shop, etc. Yet those same voices become uncharacteristically silent when these threads pop up and irrefutably point out the piss-poor customer service that so many have experienced.

The cylinder peening is indeed related to heavy usage. It's also related to lousy metallurgy. I think it's disgraceful that S&W won't warranty the cylinder, particularly when Jim is paying good money for other "elective" custom work.

This is not a gunsmith issue Mike, it is a customer service issue. Your bashing is always about the work. You have always stated they have no one there that can work on the guns. In this case, they can do the work, they just want to be paid for it.

I agree with you that the factory should warranty the cylinder and that maybe a call placed to the proper person would rectify the situation.

A polite clarification that this is a competition firearm that is used in the sports that make many sales for this company can go a lot farther than thumping on a desk yelling S&W Sucks.

My suggestion is contact Tom Taylor VP of Marketing and ask why these firearms are marketed to the competition shooter if they do not hold up. Or Contact Julie Goloski the Consumer Program Manager and see if she can point you in the right direction. Or the Customer Service Manager and see why a competition hand gun is not holding up.

As for Jerry, he told me he has never had the problem when I asked him last year at S&W.

My opinion is these things are designed to be shot not just looked at. When the barrel is shot out or the internals are so worn they can not be repaired, it has seen the end of its life. A cylinder wearing to the point the rest of the gun can not be used is not acceptable. That is not the fault of those that work on the guns.

[Carmoney]

Gary, I've been in a grumpy mood all week, so my post above might have come out a bit more strident than intended. Sorry if that sounded obnoxious. But I would like to respond to a couple of your comments:

I don't think the gunsmiths at the factory know how to set up a competition action. The stuff of theirs I've seen has been pretty old-school and, frankly, mediocre. Even their best efforts are way oversprung for our needs. Bottom line, if you want the best possible DA trigger pull on a competition gun, you will not get it from S&W.

I agree with your point on polite clarifications. Despite the tone of my post above, I'm not really much of a desk thumper unless pushed pretty hard. I do conflict for a living--literally--and have no desire to engage in conflict in my free time. On the other hand, I also do justice for a living, and don't like to see people treated unfairly.

As for wearing out guns, I can only tell you that soft cylinders were simply not a problem on the blued N-frames. (There have been other problems, however...) My old 25-2 has a ton of mileage on it, as does my old 27-2--and most of that shooting was with heavy pin loads. I have replaced minor stuff (cylinder stops, hands, springs, etc.) over the years, but none of the major components has worn to the point that the guns cannot be used.

All of this said, I don't think the peening problem is that big a deal, because as it turns out, it can be readily fixed with about 10 minutes effort as detailed above. I view it more as an annoyance than any sort of severe defect. Then again, it's more than an annoyance if it happens in the middle of a big match and causes you to trash a stage when you're running neck and neck with a couple other top wheelgunners....

[Carmoney]

Thinking about the cylinder issue, I wonder if there would be a way to re-harden a stock stainless 625 cylinder in some reasonably cost-effective manner.

The Ti option is there (at least until they quit making Ti .45 cylinders someday), but may bring certain disadvantages into the equation. Using a blued cylinder would be an option if there was a reliable source of 25-2 cylinders, but there's not. I sent my stainless cylinder off to be hard-chromed, and just as Waltermitty predicted, it didn't really do much to stop the peening.

So since the factory won't take care of it, what about some sort of aftermarket heat treatment or something that would actually harden the surface of the stock cylinder sufficiently to stop the problem? What would be viable? Anyone??

[DougCarden]

When I spoke to Jerry about this very issue and related my issues aforementioned about my 625 he just smiled. Turns out that this came up several years ago and it was mentioned that one possible fix could be to just heat induction harden the stops, similar to what they do on the .460 and .500 Revos. Turns out that is kinda expensive.....

I am in the process of sending a stainless cylinder to get it Cryoed, to see if that process will harden the stainless sufficiently to handle the wear better than the simple stainless cylinder.

I too had a "friend" in the Performance center that I sent my stuff to and he fixed stuff without screwing up my already done work, but he isnt in there anymore. He told me there was only one guy left there that he would have work on stuff.....Take it for what it is.

I love my Smiths, and am one of their biggest fans....Hell, I carry a Smith every day...that ought to show my loyalty... but I am seriously reconsidering buying a 5in. 9mm M&P when they come out, as I know I put a lot of rounds through my guns, and dont want to have to beg them to fix the damn thing when something breaks......

I have also been lied to by two employees at Smith, one allegedly a gunsmith about my gun that I am currently competing with that I was told that it was "worn out". The other was a customer service rep that was rude/lied to me when I asked questions about options. When I told him I would call him back to decide what to do with the gun he just put it in the mail and I got it the next day.

Again, I am not bashing Smith, but the facts are what they are. People may not like them, but it is what it is. I am used to telling people unpopular things, so I have a thick skin. I am not as eloquent as Carmoney is, and you may not like his message, but I have had the same experience and agree wholeheartedly with his information. The good side is that I have been buying tools and learning how to work on my Revos now......

It is hard to think that we competitors that beta test companies equipment are less than 5% of the gun buying public, but we are.....probably closer to 2%.......

Good luck Jim!!!!

Respectfully submitted,

Doug Carden

Edited May 16, 2007 by DougCarden

[Gregg K]

It is hard to think that we competitors that beta test companies equipment are less than 5% of the gun buying public, but we are.....probably closer to 2%.......

Good luck Jim!!!!

Respectfully submitted,

Doug Carden

There is part of the problem, since we the competitors that shoot the snot out of our guns only make up 2% of the buying public, companies aren't likely to change. If the other 98% buy their guns and let them set in a drawer, the company has at least a 98% satisfaction rate.

Like you said Doug, it's not all bad because I have been buying my own tools and learning a lot too.

[Carmoney]

It is hard to think that we competitors that beta test companies equipment are less than 5% of the gun buying public, but we are.....probably closer to 2%.......

We're a very small minority of the shooting public, but we shoot a disproptionate percentage of the rounds fired!

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Gary, I've been in a grumpy mood all week, so my post above might have come out a bit more strident than intended. Sorry if that sounded obnoxious. But I would like to respond to a couple of your comments:

Me too, too much work and not enough time plus too many Chiropractor appointments.

Being in the field you are, you know the reason they will not do competition action work. I have done 2 action jobs for S&W employees.

To respond to both you and Doug and the original writer:

Whether we are 2% or 20% there needs to be a way for us to bring our gripes to S&W in a way they will listen. There needs to be a person that actually works there that will listen to the problems. I wish I had an e mail address for Herb Belin. I think he is the guy we really need to talk to.

When I met with the past president of S&W a couple years ago, he was receptive to my comments. Unfortunately, he is not there anymore and I have not tried to contact anyone.

I come from the days of the S&W walk in service center that used to be across Roosevelt Ave from the factory. I could drop of my duty gun at 8AM and pick it up at 1PM with any option added or repair completed. That is no more since the building burned down. I still have some people I see from time to time at matches and can many times get done what I can not do myself because of lack of tooling.

As more and more retire, the precision work will need to be farmed out. That is fine with me. It is the actual warranty work being refused that needs to be addressed. If I dry fire every night and live fire 500 to 1000 a week, the gun will wear. It should not wear out to the point they will not fix it. They should be thrilled someone is that dedicated to using their product that it can be worn.

As the 2% of their sales, we would only be a small amount of repairs. Since most of us do our own, that is even a smaller amount headed back to Springfield.

My latest project is to work on a customer of mine that is a rep for Taurus. I am trying to get a competition revolver to shoot the hell out of and see what happens. I really want them the make a revolver to compete with the 610 and with the 627 8 shot. We will see.

Off to the Chiro again,

[DougCarden]

Gary, I agree with you 100%. I already beat my head against the wall with the Short Colt project, showing it to Smith reps, one of which in his best East Coast Chest puff told me that "they" had some guns in the works and we would have to wait. This is with the 2nd biggest Revolver match crowd in the US standing by watching this. We told them what we wanted and he told us that we would get whatever they wanted to give us....

It "is" a customer service thing, and I hope it gets addressed. They really have too much of a good thing going not to.....

Sorry Jim....Let us know how your gun turns out!

DougC