231 For The 40?

[carinab]

I'll give the counter argument...with my "internet knowledge".

Since the days that this forum started, 231 has been reported to not only be temperature sensitive, but also position sensitive. Meaning that shortening the OAL a little (bullet setback) can produce lots of extra pressure.

40 at major is a high pressure round to start with. With so many other powders out there that work well...I never bothered to try my luck with 231 in 40 at Major.

I'll see Flex's internet knowledge and raise it by first hand experience. I used 231 for both 9mm and .40 for the first few years I was shooting. It is temperature sensitive losing at least 20-40 fps for every 10-15 degrees cooler in ambient temp. I nearly went sub-minor at the 93 Ltd Nationals. Throw 30 rounds in the freezer and transport them in a cooler to the range. Run them over the chrono versus "room" temperature ammo and you'll see what I mean.

[RePete]

231 works great with 180 grain moly-coated bullets for major PF. I'm getting 170 PF at 4.6 grains out of my son's G22. This is 0.4 grains below book max, lots of headroom. Accurate, consistent, and shoots soft. Less smoke that TG.

Good timing with your reply! I just bought some 180gr Masterblasters to try. The cost of jacketed has really gone up.

I'm going to try 231 with them. mainly because I've heard that they (moly/poly) coated bullets do smoke a lot with TG.

Thanks

Bill:

For your G17,I suggest that you try 3.9gr/Unique with the 147gr CMJ bullet.

PF = 138.17

Velocity = 939.9fps.

It gives a nice push instead of a snap.

RePete, I used Unique years ago and switched to Bullseye, then to 231. I liked 231 better. I don't remember why, but I did. Maybe because it was a little cleaner or something

This was also in a 45 though at low velocities.

Thanks

I have just returned to Unique because they have changed it to burn cleaner and that impresses me. The performance certainly hasn't changed.l

[billdncn]

I'll give the counter argument...with my "internet knowledge".

Since the days that this forum started, 231 has been reported to not only be temperature sensitive, but also position sensitive. Meaning that shortening the OAL a little (bullet setback) can produce lots of extra pressure.

40 at major is a high pressure round to start with. With so many other powders out there that work well...I never bothered to try my luck with 231 in 40 at Major.

I'll see Flex's internet knowledge and raise it by first hand experience. I used 231 for both 9mm and .40 for the first few years I was shooting. It is temperature sensitive losing at least 20-40 fps for every 10-15 degrees cooler in ambient temp. I nearly went sub-minor at the 93 Ltd Nationals. Throw 30 rounds in the freezer and transport them in a cooler to the range. Run them over the chrono versus "room" temperature ammo and you'll see what I mean.

I certinly have no reason to doubt you, nor Flexmoney. I'm starting with 231 because I have some on hand, and feel it's the best choice out of what I have.

Yesterday I was going to start a new topic, "Best powder for Moly/Polymer coated 40's". What's your favorite, and why? Looking for something consistant, clean, and non-smokey.

What do you guy's like?

Thanks

[billdncn]

Chrono report at the Va/Md Sectionals.

Temp. 90 deg., and sunny. Guessing about 70% humidity. 3:45 p.m.

G35 - factory barrel

Win brass

180 gr. Masterblaster

4.7 grs. 231

Fed 100 primer

1.145" - 1.150" oal

The pulled MB weighed 176.4 grs. 7 shot's recorded with a low of 900fps, and a high of 943. Came in at an avg. PF of 165.87

Don't know why the large Deviation. No bullet setback experienced. I'm not tarring the coating when seating, or crimping. Crimping to .422". Powder charge is very consistent.

Guess I have a somewhat slow barrel too.

Even with the large SD this load is very accurate for me, with very little smoke. Will up it to 5.0grs., and try to borrow a chrono.

[Merlin Orr]

Chrono report at the Va/Md Sectionals.

Temp. 90 deg., and sunny. Guessing about 70% humidity. 3:45 p.m.

G35 - factory barrel

Win brass

180 gr. Masterblaster

4.7 grs. 231

Fed 100 primer

1.145" - 1.150" oal

The pulled MB weighed 176.4 grs. 7 shot's recorded with a low of 900fps, and a high of 943. Came in at an avg. PF of 165.87

Don't know why the large Deviation. No bullet setback experienced. I'm not tarring the coating when seating, or crimping. Crimping to .422". Powder charge is very consistent.

Guess I have a somewhat slow barrel too.

Even with the large SD this load is very accurate for me, with very little smoke. Will up it to 5.0grs., and try to borrow a chrono.

Have you tried this same load with a tighter crimp? It is a bunch looser than what I have been crimping my stuff which may explain the large deviation in velocity.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Merlin Orr

[billdncn]

Have you tried this same load with a tighter crimp? It is a bunch looser than what I have been crimping my stuff which may explain the large deviation in velocity.

Nah. They chamber fine. My crimp is consistant with the outside dia. of the case with a seated bullet. As far as I can tell the expander in my sizing die allows no movement under cycling, or recoil, and gives a consistantly firm hold.

I'm begining to wonder if I had 2 different loads mixed

[rhett45acp]

Hi,

Finally someone is talking about the crip. It makes a big difference in accuracy and smoke. I have shot video of myself shooting different guns and different loads all on the same day. 231 in .45 ACP with a 200 SWC is my stable in a single stack. It just works, but smoky! In .40 I used U-Clays for a long time until another shooter turned me on to Titegroup. I use ZERO 180 JHP bullets in .40 in both my G35 and P16. I have played with plated bullets trying to keep cost down, but I have not been satisfied so for. This weekend I am going to experiment again. In the videos, Titegroup and U-Clays ran very close with all different loads in visible smoke. However, Titegroup had a slight edge with less smoke. The big difference came when you tear down the guns to clean. Titgroup seems to leave less fouling.

Accuracy can be directly contributed to whatever crip/bullet combination you are using. There are a few threads here that really get into it. It's a bit late because you have already sent the Para to the accuracy hospital, but in the future tinker with the loads much more before you do so. My rifle experience has ingrained this in me. After you tinker and you still don’t get the results, then send the thing to the accuracy hospital.

BTW – Video taping is a great tool. It’s very honest!

[billdncn]

I no longer have the P16, and getting rid of it is the best thing I've done in a long time. I too like and use Titegroup with jacketed bullets with very good results.

So far 231 is working fine with the Black Bullets I'm using in my G35. I just need to up my charge for a safety margin shooting major.

I am now using 231 for the 9, 40, and 45. All using either lead, or moly coated bullets.

BTW, I replaced the Para with a SA 45 that shoots lights out. Gonna play some CDP, and SS

[sargenv]

My load for 231 and black bullets was 5.0 - 231 loaded to 1.175". Can't remember velocity, but PF was in the 170 ish range. I was using Bear creek truncated cone 180's. As I recall, this was a max load for powder but that was at the length of 1.135". I had good accuracy out of my P16, though it might have been a little smoky. I haven't shot that load in about 3 years since now I use a 140 RN for my 610 in minor with a different powder. At the time I think I switched to jacketed and with Zero 180 TC's, 231 seemed to run out of steam and could only get me to about 162 pf. I wasn't going to increase it so I switched to 4.7 of Titegroup and used that till I was out of jacketed.