9x23 Loading Suggestions With Unique

[Justsomeguy]

I recently built a 9mm variant on one of my old 45 frames and got a three barrels for it. One is 9mm (shoots nice with this gun) and two 38 Super barrels. I got a 9X23 reamer from Brownell's and reamed one of the barrels 'cause the 9X23's would not go in the well chambered Super barrels. So now I have 3 calibers for this gun. There is plenty of reloading data for Unique for the 9mm and 38 Super, but none at all for the 9X23. I bought 1000 new brass (Winchester) from Midway and have a bunch of 124grn round nose Berry's bullets and 4lbs of Unique and all this nice empty brass soooo...

If anyone can recommend a loading that might make major for the 9X23 with Unique I would love to hear it. If it cannot be done with Unique, then I would bite the bullet, so to speak, and try some other powder. Regrettably, there are few powder suppliers near where I live, so I have it shipped in and do not want to pay the hazmat fee for more powder unless absolutely necessary.

Factory stuff from Winchester easily makes major with power to spare, and shoots fairly softly in my 1911. I just want a load that will reliably make major with Unique without too much drama.

[Justsomeguy]

I guess it isn't possible to get loads for Unique for this caliber as no one has replied.

Ok then... how about some other powders that will make major with the 9X23 with 124grn bullets. I was hoping to use Berry's copper plated for this experiment. Anyone tried those?

[Flexmoney]

I'm a bit confused. It sounds like you might have a single-stack 1911? If so, are you planning on shooting USPSA/IPSC Open division with it?

Other than Open division, the 9/38 calibers are restricted from making Major power factor (by the rules). To shoot Major in the other gun divisions requires 40 caliber or larger.

- 9x23 is similar to 38 Super. From my understanding, the case capacity is a bit tighter in 9x23, so you'd want to back off the Super loads a bit.

- Plated bullets at the velocity you are talking about can sometimes have troubles. The jackets can separate. Keep an eye out for this.

I don't know a thing about Unique. (and I don't have a load manual handy)

I always thought that Winchester factory 38S came up a bit short of making Major ?

It sound like you have a chrono?

[herky]

I shoot 9x23 using IMR 7625, depending what you shoot it out of, start around 6.5 gr and slowly work up. OAL is 1.255. Accuracy with plated bullets was NOT GOOD out of my gun. Switching to 125 gr Zero JHP cured that problem. Note, if you are using a Colt single stack with an unsupported barrel, I would be very careful with the load.

[Action Pistolero]

I have several 9x23's and have done a fair bit of experimenting with it. You can use most 38 Super starting loads in the loading manuals. The 9x23 case is designed for 50,000 CUP. I believe the 38 Super is 35,000. I have loaded some screaming loads showing all kinds of pressure signs and did not hurt the case. These were all fired in supported chambers.

All that being said, Unique is not a powder to make Major. It is best suited for Minor loads as it's burn rate is too fast. To make Major you need a slower burning powder. I use 7.9 gr of Viht. 3N37 over a 125 gr HAP bullet.

[Carlos]

You have come to the right place.

The data list below is ancient and has not been updated since 2003 (much of the data is far far older than that w/ even discontinued powders on the list). NEVERTHELESS, it is a good place to start.

http://home.columbus.rr.com/jmaass/ipscload.htm

READ WARNINGS AT TOP OF PAGE BEFORE USING

Also, while 9x23 uses the rough equiv of shortened .223 Remington brass (look it up) a better solution is to install a ramped, supported-chamber barrel like the one on the Tanfoglio or a custom 1911. Unique IS cleaner than black powder - but not by much. It is not a good choice for powerful loads.

Regards,

C

Edited December 5, 2006 by Carlos

[Justsomeguy]

You have come to the right place.

The data list below is ancient and has not been updated since 2003 (much of the data is far far older than that w/ even discontinued powders on the list). NEVERTHELESS, it is a good place to start.

http://home.columbus.rr.com/jmaass/ipscload.htm

READ WARNINGS AT TOP OF PAGE BEFORE USING

Also, while 9x23 uses the rough equiv of shortened .223 Remington brass (look it up) a better solution is to install a ramped, supported-chamber barrel like the one on the Tanfoglio or a custom 1911. Unique IS cleaner than black powder - but not by much. It is not a good choice for powerful loads.

Regards,

C

Ok... I can't get there with Unique. What I did was take an old 45 single stack of mine and convert it to 9mm. Then I said... what the heck and got a couple of 38 Super barrels for it and reamed one of them to 9X23. Then I got some white box Winchester 9X23 and shot it out of the newly reamed barrel with these results.

9X23 Winchester

125grn SP

Speed in FPS

1470

1454

1474

1465

1449

1484

1506

1473

1457

1463

Average Speed

1469.5

Power Factor

183.7

Standard Deviation

15.7

Gun = 1911 5" bbl

Note Temp = 50deg

Having done all that, I then went to Midway Supply and bought 1000 new Winchester 9X23 brass and figured I would load 'em up. From whatever tables I have been able to find, it seems like vv3N37 is the best bet for this caliber, using small rifle primers because of the pressure limits of the case. 7625 also looks like a winner in this case and may be easier to obtain.

But now, with new rulings (?) for IPSC it seems like no 9mm round will be allowed to make major! At least that seems to be true for Limited 10 or Limited. Maybe they will relent.

Still, it's a good "carry round", feeds well, and shoots soft. I think it is somewhat better than Super with the same bullets and the case is a lot tougher. I just got "project lock" and the rules passed me by. Oh well, now I have this nifty 3 caliber 1911 and will want to shoot it. Maybe the steel plate guys will let me play. Now I will have to get some 147grn bullets for it too. Sigh... it just keeps coming.

[Flexmoney]

The rules for USPSA (IPSC) aren't really new. We've had the requirements of 40 caliber or larger to make Major in Limited and Limited-10 since I have been around (2000).

9x23 can score Major in Open division. But, there the guns often are double stacks with extended mags (28+ rounds), red-dot optics and compensators.

You gun still sound like a keeper. If you get a chance, google Dane Burns. He is hot and heavy on single-stack 9x23's.

Your gun would still work for a few games...

It would be great for Steel Challenge and NRA Action Pistol. You wouldn't need to load it up to Major (your brass would last for a loooong time). It should work for IDPA's ESP division (again, minor). And, in USPSA's [provisional] Single Stack division you could shoot it at minor with mags that "fit in the box" and you'd have more rounds in the gun than those shooting Major (40's & 45's).

[DougCarden]

Just saw your thread....

For 9x23, I would go to www.burnscustom.com

Scroll down on the left side until you see "all about 9x23".

You will get a wealth of 9x23 info and load data as well. You can duplicate factory ammo with Ramshot Silhouette(repackaged Win action pistol) and jacketed bullets. If you are duplicating factory type velocity loads I would stay away from the plated bullets and Unique. I know some have had good luck with plated bullets, but at these velocities I wouldnt do it. Up to you. Unique is good powder, but for medium loads only.

Now, in a non supported barrel I only recommend using Win 9x23 brass for the factory or other hot loads........why you ask?

The win brass has a beefed up web and can handle the 50,000+psi loads in a non supported barrel, whereas starline 9supercomp is not....If you find some of your brass web is bulged, try using a Lee 9x19 die and that should size down far enough to get rid of it.

Sounds like you had a good project! Enjoy it

Oh yeah.....the brass is sooooo expensive that I wouldnt use it for matches, use the 9x19....it is so cheap it is almost free!

Regards,

DougC

Edited December 7, 2006 by DougC

[Justsomeguy]

Just saw your thread....

For 9x23, I would go to www.burnscustom.com

Scroll down on the left side until you see "all about 9x23".

You will get a wealth of 9x23 info and load data as well. You can duplicate factory ammo with Ramshot Silhouette(repackaged Win action pistol) and jacketed bullets. If you are duplicating factory type velocity loads I would stay away from the plated bullets and Unique. I know some have had good luck with plated bullets, but at these velocities I wouldnt do it. Up to you. Unique is good powder, but for medium loads only.

Now, in a non supported barrel I only recommend using Win 9x23 brass for the factory or other hot loads........why you ask?

The win brass has a beefed up web and can handle the 50,000+psi loads in a non supported barrel, whereas starline 9supercomp is not....If you find some of your brass web is bulged, try using a Lee 9x19 die and that should size down far enough to get rid of it.

Sounds like you had a good project! Enjoy it

Oh yeah.....the brass is sooooo expensive that I wouldnt use it for matches, use the 9x19....it is so cheap it is almost free!

Regards,

DougC

Hi there Doug...

I am familiar with the Burns site. It was after perusing there that I got the bug to build this thing in the first place. Thanks for the info about Ramshot Silhouette powder. I couldn't remember which powder replaced WAP. I thought is was a Hogdon powder. I will have to look for it at some local supplier. The 1000 cases I bought from Midway were all Winchester. I also got some small rifle primers as that was the recommended type when approaching maximum loads. We shall see if that is the hot setup. VV3N37 also seems viable, but it is nearly impossible to obtain here. I don't want to spend a fortune on hazmat fees to have some shipped. Other data and a member here also recommend IMR 7625 which may not give absolute maximum results, but would probably be "good enough" if the others cannot be had. I saw a pound of it at a GI Joe's the other day and will look into it.

Like you say, if .355 bullets can only be used for minor, then the standard 9mm would be what I would use in a match if I wanted to go minor. It is certainly cheaper, easier to obtain, I loaded plenty of it before, and wouldn't cry if I didn't find a few cases after shooting.

As to the plated bullets, I suppose I would get some actual jacketed ones if I was trying for velocities over 1250-1300fps. Plated tend to come apart or go "wonky" past those speeds. I suppose a couple hundred jacketed would not break me, but I don't think I would load them at all times. For moderate loads, even in the 9X23, plated would be adequate. I have pushed them to about the 1300 mark in 9mm and they stayed together and went were they were pointed, but I was probably lucky.

Thank you and all the other members who responded so far.