Thoughts On Comstock Vs. Vickers?

[Grump]

I'm about to get back into this game and maybe I think too much...BUT back when I was shooting small club matches, we started out with three stages each match, one being par time (=accuracy test with time pressure), one stage being a time=score speed shoot (generally knockdowns of various sorts), and one stage being a Comstock or Vickers (combo speed and accuracy--seemed to me like premium was on speed so long as there were no Mikes...).

So, what are the thoughts on the two "hit factor" scoring techniques? I see there being a benefit to allowing "Mulligans" 'cause in real-life practicality, you DO keep on shooting until the target is eliminated. So, I kinda think regular Comstock is Okay.

BUTONTHEOTHERHAND, I also like the fire control training, don'twasteashot skills encouraged by Vickers and the "shoot only so many shots" rule. As was stated in the IPSC legend I heard circa 1985 or so*, you might not have TIME to waste shots!

Built-in thread drift:

This has more to do with CoF rules on order of engagement, like the IDPA folks obsess over...

*Rumor I heard was that an LEO who was a fair-to-hot IPSC shooter was called to an active bank robbery. As he approached the front door to the bank, three Goblins raced out and decided to engage the Cop. Cop draws and starts to double-tap or whatever each Goblin, and is killed by the first shot from the third BG just after Cop puts shot #1 into BG #2. (BG #1 was engaged with two shots CoM and went down).

Anyone have leads on whether this is true or Urban Legend?

[kruger]

I'm about to get back into this game and maybe I think too much...BUT back when I was shooting small club matches, we started out with three stages each match, one being par time (=accuracy test with time pressure), one stage being a time=score speed shoot (generally knockdowns of various sorts), and one stage being a Comstock or Vickers (combo speed and accuracy--seemed to me like premium was on speed so long as there were no Mikes...).

So, what are the thoughts on the two "hit factor" scoring techniques? I see there being a benefit to allowing "Mulligans" 'cause in real-life practicality, you DO keep on shooting until the target is eliminated. So, I kinda think regular Comstock is Okay.

BUTONTHEOTHERHAND, I also like the fire control training, don'twasteashot skills encouraged by Vickers and the "shoot only so many shots" rule. As was stated in the IPSC legend I heard circa 1985 or so*, you might not have TIME to waste shots!

Do you mean Virginia count? It is an IPSC/USPSA scoring system where taking extra shots incurs penalties. I don't mind it. On the short courses of fire where I see it, I don't want to take extra shots anyways. On a course with lots of tight shots, it could be a real pain.

Vickers is an IDPA "time+penalties" scoring system. I don't like it as much as the "points per second" system of Comstock/Virgina since it is harder to vary the speed v. accuracy problem. However, this is a minor quibble.

Built-in thread drift:

This has more to do with CoF rules on order of engagement, like the IDPA folks obsess over...

*Rumor I heard was that an LEO who was a fair-to-hot IPSC shooter was called to an active bank robbery. As he approached the front door to the bank, three Goblins raced out and decided to engage the Cop. Cop draws and starts to double-tap or whatever each Goblin, and is killed by the first shot from the third BG just after Cop puts shot #1 into BG #2. (BG #1 was engaged with two shots CoM and went down).

Anyone have leads on whether this is true or Urban Legend?

It sounds a little _too_ convenient to me... it comes across as an advertisement for shooting tactical sequence.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

[shred]

Built-in thread drift:

This has more to do with CoF rules on order of engagement, like the IDPA folks obsess over...

*Rumor I heard was that an LEO who was a fair-to-hot IPSC shooter was called to an active bank robbery. ...

Anyone have leads on whether this is true or Urban Legend?

Urban legend. Lots of searching has failed to turn up anything but wishful thinking from some wannabe tactical gurus. Notice how the real top-tier tactical guys never mention it..

[Grump]

OOPS! Virgiania, Vickers, whatever. The point, not lost on this audience, is that the number of rounds to engage each target is fixed. That part of is hits up against the Uber-Tactical teachings of shoot until the target is down, and encourages making "shoot" decisions before facing the targets, etc.

I *read* once somewhere (all disclaimers apply) that some US military research had shown that troops tended to take the same amount of time to shoot their guns empty, whether loaded with 5-round strippers (bolt guns), 8-round enblocs, 20-round mags or 30-round mags. The gun games seem to prove that a the higher levels of performance, taking extra shots fired faster to "ensure" hits is still not as fast as making every shot count.

But to build different parts of the skill sets, I think every match should have BOTH Comstock and a Virginia-count stage(s).

[Crusher]

The gun games seem to prove that a the higher levels of performance, taking extra shots fired faster to "ensure" hits is still not as fast as making every shot count

I dont belive so, in the time I have been shooting USPSA (The GAME) I have rarely witnessed anyone take extra shot on comstock stages UNLESS they "call" a bad shot and most times the subsequent make up shot is fired very quickly, for at the higher levels of skill almost all KNOW where the bullet will strike before it hits the target.

A good example of this is to wactch good shooters runs plates or poppers, many times the shooter is engaging the 4th, 5th or 6th plate/popper before the first has been completely knocked down. Another example is a target array where there is a activated target (by a steel plate/popper) and several static targets. Most will activate the steel target and pick up a few static targets before the dynamic target appears.

The games for the most part are about speed and accuracy with regard to the "mechanics" of gun handling, the "tactics" stuff most leave to the "Mall Ninjas" and the "Tacti-Cartel" card carriers associations to debate about ad-infinitum (nausium).

[kevin c]

My impression has been that fixed round count stages in IPSC (Virginia Count) is mainly used in classifiers. Maybe part of the original intent was both to emphasize the accuracy part of DVC, and perhaps to "level the playing field" across the different round capacity of the firearms being used.