Recoil spring to strong for SWC Bullets?

[Taurus]

Greetings from Vienna!

I have feeding problems with my Les Baer PII  6" in .45 APC but only with  SWC ( 200 grs Hornady FMJ-CT) and only between round 2 and 4.  It looks like the slide pushes the round forward and downwards.

I can see that the rim of the stucked round is pushing down on the corner of the lower bullet where the cone shaped part turns in the cylindric part. On the brass is

a light dent (about 1/10" from the casemouth and 1/4 of the perimeter) from the lower edge of the chamber. The problem occures sporadicly, if I make 100 shots no problem, the next 100  5 times, and the next 100 2 times a failure and so on...  

Every thing is checked:

feedramp, breechface, other magazines, OAL of the ammo...  nothing helped.

So I compared my gun with the SVI Scepter from my brother. The difference that I noticed is the strenght of the Recoil spring. The SVI spring (also a 6" gun) is much lighter. I tested a lighter spring in my gun and it works.

Than I measured the strength of the factory spring, and compare it to a 13 and a 16,5 pound spring. I would rate the factory spring at approximatly 20 pounds.

My question is:

Can the spring realy be the reason of this, or is there another problem and a lighter spring is the wrong way to fix this?

Because English is not my native language and school is

very long ago, I hope my posting is still understandable for you.

Taurus

[Carlos]

Velkommen! I had the same "nose dive" problem you describe in your post.  I solved the problem by changing springs, but not recoil springs.  Instead, I changed my STI high-capacity magazine springs to Bevin Gramm's larger diameter wire magazine springs (this was in an STI .45 cal Edge). In addition, there was an excellent post on this website (with photographs) of Brian's modification to STI  magazine springs to prevent nose-dives. Now, I realize your gun uses single stack magazines. The modification will probably be different for your springs. Alternatively, this could be a problem with overall length of the SWC loads you are using. But I will defer to the likes of CST gunsmith or Bevin as to what they think is causing the problem. Guys?

[Taurus]

Hello  Carlos!

First of all, thank you for your reply. I tried different overall lengths of the SWC. From very short, to as long as the magazine allows. I used instead the original baer

magazine one from Wilson, no success. I ordered by my

gunsmith Wolff Magazine springs, and I will try them as soon I have them.  But when you live in Europe, this can take a long time.

Taurus

[3quartertime]

Taurus,

Just a small note;   my opinion is your grasp of the language that many may be surprised to find out is my native,  is exemptulary ( case in point, I probably murdered the spelling there!!!)

As ever I am reminded of the international diversity of this site.   Coolest in the extreme!!!

Anyways,  WELCOME!!!

[Detlef]

kann durchaus sein. Mit der starken Feder laeuft der Schlitten wahrscheinlich nicht ganz zurueck, dann bleibt der Patrone nicht genug Zeit zum Nachfuehren. Sind die SWCs schwaecher geladen (geringerer PF) als die RNs? Nimm eine schwaechere Feder (16-18 lb) und sei gluecklich, wahrscheinlich ist das alles, was es braucht... Ist ein gaengiges Problem mit der 45er.

--D.

PS Take THAT for mastering a foreign language!

(Edited by Detlef at 12:42 pm on July 18, 2002)

[EricW]

Gesundheit!

[Detlef]

yes, that, too....

[Nik Habicht]

Detlef,

Stop trying to make me think!  Before you know it, I'll be able to name gun parts in German also....

My parents would really appreciate that.

[Carlos]

Nicht die RN! While a switch to a round-nose bullet may treat a symptom of the problem, I would like to know the cause of your gun's problem to begin with. Your .45 should run 100% reliably with SWCs - in fact, there are those who believe the H&G 68-style SWC is actually more reliable than the RN (CST gunsmith - are you out there? back me up on this would you!?!). While the RN is an option (hey, I use 200 RNs in my STI) I would not make the RN bullet switch to cure a feeding problem - I would solve the feeding problem first, then decide what bullet profile you want to use.  

Then again, Detlef's Roundnose solution might get you back to shooting in competition as soon as tomorrow, and it is difficult to argue against that. Seems worth a try if you have or can borrow a few RNs. Please let the rest of us know what course of action you decide on. Regards,

Douglas

[Detlef]

Espanol no! (how was that?)

Carlos: I said (end of suspence) that this is a common problem in the 45. Usually the SWC loads are lighter than the 230 gr RN loads, and for reliable feeding you *need* a lighter recoil spring! Otherwise what happens is that the slide doesn't come all the way back and you get nose-dive feed problems like Taurus described. I recommended to go to a 16-18 lb spring and not worry about it anymore *if* this is what solves the problem.

And you are right, it *should* run reliable with SWCs, too (respecting the usual OAL problems)...

--Detlef

(Edited by Detlef at 2:45 pm on July 18, 2002)

[Carlos]

Detlef:

I should really leave German to those who actually speak the language (obviously I do not). Good point about the SWCs; I started reloading and shooting in USPSA with lead 200 SWCs, then switched to plated 200SWCs and even tried the National Bullet 152 SWCs for a time - definitly required spring changes!

Very cool that you are able to offer on-the-money advice - in German! That is why I love this site.  

Gracias para clarificarlo; estuve equivicado. (Thanks for clearing that up; I was mistaken). Actually I am an Anglo/gringo (take your pick); I just speak Spanish; earned my degree in Latin American Area Studies and lived in South America for a time (Chile). Interesting side note: while in Argentina the November before last, I visited a gunshop staffed by IPSC shooters and checked out some very nice custom 1911 race guns. Hope we will see more international competitors venturing to the US in the future.  D.

[Taurus]

Many thanks to all for your comments.

I tried different loads from the Vihtavuori Reloading Guide, because there are loads for exactly this Hornady bullet. And also with 6.9 grs N340 I have this problem. With this load, I believe the slide will move back the full way.

I have another idea what is going on:

When the bullet hits the feedramp with to much speed/force, it's more bouncing off than sliding the ramp along upwards. That does mean that the angle of the round is too steep. The bullet nose hits the upper part of the chamber, and the brass (where I found the dent) the lower edge of the chamber. This point works like a pivot when the slide is moving forward, and the whole round is turning around this point. The bottom is now moving down/forward and the nose will go up/backwards. And because the nose has contact with the chamber, it can´t move and the gun jam. What do you think about that theory?

To check that, I did the following:

The original recoil spring is a Wolff Longslide spring #3. The Longslide springs have no ratings in pounds, they are rated in Numbers from 1 to 5 and must be fitted to the gun. Detlef has recommended a 16-18 lb spring. So I´ve taken a Longslide spring, have cut and measured it until the strenght is equal to a 18 lb spring. But now it has the lenght of a standard (for 5" guns) spring.

Now a question:

if this works, is it realy necessary to use one of the Longslide springs, (lighter, but as long as the original one) or should I use in the future a spring in standard lenght?

Tomorrow I make a test with the adjusted spring at the range, and I post the result.

@ Carlos: I will stay with the SWC, because the gun shoots the tightest groups with them. They make also this nice looking, sharp edged holes. And you are right, I want to know the cause of the problem and solve it. In the meantime I used RN at competitions.

@ Detlef: Wie klein doch die Welt ist. Da finde ich ein amerikanisches Forum, in dem es eine genau passende Rubrik fuer mein Problem gibt. Auf mein posting bekomme ich dann auch eine Antwort in Deutsch!

Taurus

[Carlos]

Taurus: I look forward to the results of your test! I hope the forum has been helpful to you. Now I have a favor to ask that only you (or perhaps another European/International IPSC shooter) can fulfil.

Question: I'd like to know if anyone makes a lighter trigger for the Steyr M-9 9mm? As we all know, there are a number of manufacturers who make and sell 3.5Lb Glock trigger bars; is there a similar light competition trigger part made for the 9mm Steyr? Unfortunately, the Steyr M-Series has not caught on in the US as much as say, the Glock or even the Croatian HS2000 (AKA the Springfield XD). Consequently, there are fewer accessories available here. What about in Vienna? I realize you are a 1911 shooter, but I would imagine many of the IPSC production class competitors in Vienna would choose the Steyr M-series.

Thanks in advance for any info you can offer, and thanks also for adding an international flare to BE.com!  Regards,

Douglas

[Taurus]

Carlos,

tomorrow I will ask my gunsmith about parts to lighten the trigger from a Steyr. His name is Seidler and he is well known in Austria and Germany for his Glock Tuning parts. Maybe he also offers parts for Steyr Guns. If he can´t help, I post your question in forums in Austria and Germany. When I get answers I translate (I do my best) and E-mail them to you, is that okay? Or should I post them here, what do you prefer?

And I think the problem with my gun is solved. After 300

rounds without a failure, it looks like only the strong recoil spring was the problem. But I observe this until

I shoot 1000 rounds, and if there was no failure, than I believe the gun works now well.

When I got the new stronger Wolff Magazine springs, I test them with the factory recoil spring. I´m curious about they will work together.

Guenther

[Carlos]

Thanks very much Guenther! Your English is excellent and I appreciate your help as well as your transleation into my native language. Please share with us the knowledge you discover about the Steyr in IPSC competition, and in particular, any modifications to improve the trigger. While the Glock is well-known in Production here in the States, I am curious as to what model gun wins in European competition (does anyone bother with the Steyr?). Regards,

Douglas  

[Taurus]

Hello Douglas,

I' m sorry but there are no tuning parts for the steyr trigger available even here in Austria or Germany.  My gunsmith told me that this has something to do with the management of Steyr. The company was sold and the management couldn't make the pistols so successful like Glock their guns. Because the Glocks are widespread, every gunstore has  parts for them in stock. That is one reason why the people buy them. Here in Austria we have very severe gun laws and it's difficult to get a permission to buy a handgun.  And so the people think twice about it, which gun they buy.

For your question about winners of European competitions:

In the Austrian championship last year were only competitions in Open,Standard and Revolver.

In the German championship the winner used a SIG P226, second and third a CZ 75.

From the European championship I haven't an info about the guns yet.  Users of a German forum posting me that they haven't seen a Steyr in competition. The mostly used guns are the usual Glock, SigSauer, CZ, Jericho.....

This is only a short summary from postings in other forums and conversations. If I get more information I post it here.

Greetings

Guenther

(Edited by Taurus at 2:27 pm on July 29, 2002)

[Carlos]

Thanks very much for the excellent report, Guenther! You have given me much to think about. I began shooting here in the US, but I always shot foreign-made, double action pistols. Although I bought my Glock M19 back when they were first imported, I did not own a 1911/single action until last year! Here in the US, I have lived with those who think the only gun worth owning is a 1911 and that it is the best gun for all purposes - I think this comes from the "Cult of Jeff Cooper" - a cult I managed to stay out of even though I think my STI Edge is about the perfect tool for USPSA limited competition. Still, I choose to carry the Glock and trust it with my life.

As a fan of foreign guns, it is of interest to me what European shooters choose to compete with. In your last post, I was surprised that you did not mention the HK and that you did mention the Jericho.  The 9mm Jericho looks like it has a long, heavy dust cover like my STI. Perhaps when I bought the Steyr, I selected the wrong 9mm for production class?? I think I will keep the Steyr (because I am able to own as many handguns as I like in the US - for now anyway) but I will also consider competing with a different 9mm - maybe even buy another model Glock like the M17 or M34 for production class.

Anyway, thank you again for the report. I hope that you can visit the US someday. If you are ever near the capital, please give me a call; I'll lend you one of my pistols and as many practice rounds as you can shoot!

[Detlef]

Carlos,

if the Steyr works for you, why worry? In IPSC Production, you're basically not allowed to use aftermarket components anyway (sights and magazines exempt)? The gun leaves a very good impression, though I don't remember what the mag capacity is.

It might also be useful to look at the recent USPSA Factory Gun nationals results. Todd won Production with a Para LDA, next up was a Glock, then a Beretta. Though keep in mind that in USPSA, Production is more of a reloading skill test than a shooting skill test (10-rd. limit). Internationally, you find all sorts of oddball guns in Production, but I'd bet all my technology stocks that Glocks are outnumbering everything else.

--Detlef

[Taurus]

Carlos ,

you are right, it was a mistake not to mention the HK. They are also very popular.

Like Detlef said, don't be worried about your Steyr. One guy from our gunclub told me he likes the steyr, because it fits very good in his hand. And compared to other guns the direction of the recoil is more straight backwards and less upwards. IMHO one of the important things is how you cope with the gun.

For example: A member from our gunclub, a very good shooter, tried my Korth Revolver. (If Korth isn't known in the US, it is a small German company. Korth guns are mainly  handmade, and they shoot very, very well). His results are below his normal level, because the angle of the butt  is uncomfortable for him.

What I want to tell is:

If you didn't harmonize with a gun, you wouldn't shoot well. No matter what brand you are using. So if you cope with your Steyr, you should stay with it.

Guenther

PS: Thank you for your generous offer for a practice lesson, when I come some times to the US.