LAMR Question

[Detlef]

hmm../Vince, as hard as I try I cannot see anything wrong with Erik's course and the procedurals for breaking the *mines*. Remember, they're not targets, they're props here. They would not be permitted TARGETS in IPSC, of course... And yes, I should get those procedurals because it's during the COF.

--D.

[omnia1911]

How much are you willing to "assist" the shooter after LAMR? If he is in violation of 5.3.1 and 8.2.3 (touching or holding his handgun or reloading device prior to the start signal), would you ask him to change his hand position?

I have been nailed with that one.

[omnia1911]

---

Quote: from Vince Pinto on 1:11 am on Nov. 26, 2002

Hi Kelly,

It's great to see you here and what an excellent post.

In fact I agree with leniency for newer shooters at club matches, which is why my initial question set the scene at the US Nationals. That is an important match and all rules must therefore be observed to the tee, without exception, including Rule 8.6.1.

My tongue-in-cheek question about the dropped gun after the LAMR command was a friendly shot at Erik who asked: "So the RO should hand out procedural penalties earned while loading and/or unloading?". If we start making exceptions for procedurals, then the next thing will be exceptions for safety infractions.

My biggest concern about intervening is that an RO should not be able to influence the outcome of a major match. By warning the competitor about a loading oversight, you can save him 3 seconds after the draw, and that can very easily mean the difference between 1st and 2nd place, or more.

If I'm to be an impartial RO, then I must let the chips fall where they may, provided it's not a safety issue such as, say, untied shoelaces.

The term "assist the competitor" is often misinterpreted to mean "be his mother". The best way we can assist a competitor is to ensure we are totally impartial and that one guy has the same opportunity as every other guy.

I know it sounds harsh to some, but if my American fans (!!) believe a competitor is solely responsible for his gun if there's a discharge during

unloading

, how can he not be solely responsible for his gun during loading?

---

Vince, I'm thinking that your last paragraph was directed at me, for some reason. I agree with your position on assiting the shooter after the LAMR command. (pop the champagne, throw some confetti)

(Edited by omnia1911 at 12:58 pm on Nov. 26, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

I realize you are trying to make a point (about where the responsibilty lies), but you are causing more confusion in the process...

Let there be no doubt that it is the RO's responsibility to ensure each competitor starts in the correct position, as stated in the written stage briefing.

This means having the gun properly prepared (e.g. loaded or unloaded, holstered or placed on a table etc.), and the competitor has his feet & hands in the correct position (e.g. hanging naturally, surrender etc.).

See Rule 8.3.1 which states "...... The competitor shall then assume the required ready position. At this point, the Range Officer shall proceed".

Vince, those are YOUR words from another thread (the thread that Joe linked us to on page 2 of this thread).

I guess, as an RO...and following 8.3.1 ..., we would just stand there?  We cannot proceed (with "Are You Ready") because the competitor hasn't meet the requirements of the Ready Position (8.2).  

As an RO, I will tell the shooter that his hands are in the wrong position (8.2.2), that the gun is in the wrong position (8.2.1), and that they need to get their hands off of their mags or gun (8.2.3)...and that their gun is not loaded or made safe (8.2.1).  I will TELL them so that we all don't stand around until the sun goes down while the shooter trys to figure out why I haven't said "Are You Ready" (8.3.2).

This is assisting the shooter (one of the jobs of the RO).  It is not coaching.  It ensures that every shooter gets the same start.

As Vince points out in the other thread...it is covered in the rule book.  (8.3.1 - "Load and make Ready" & 8.2 - Ready Postion)

-------------

Now, as a shooter.

As a shooter, I want my competition to have zero excuses.  I want my competition to have a gun that is working and they are familar with.  I want their mags and holsters to function as advertised.  I want their ammo to hit like it did in practice and to make the stated power factor.  I don't want their knees hurting...I don't want their trigger finger smashed...I don't want their glasses to fog up.

I want their best game...and then I want to beat them.

As shooter, if you RO and let my competition start without a fully loaded gun, you have done me a dis-service. I will never know if I was better or worse on that stage, or on that day.  

RO's please respect that the competitors want to win on competition, not on range lawyering.

[vluc]

Cool comments!  i've had both types of RO's.  In my earlier days (), I did not always check my magazine after removing the loader one...just pushed it in, felt it was in and holstered.  Now that scenario exisited for two RO's at a COF.  First time the RO saw it and said nothing.  I draw..bang...nothing...have to reseat the magazine.  Afterwards he told me he thought it was not in, but...

Later, same thing at a different stage...even though I thought I had checked it, the RO indicated that it did not look like the magazine was seated the whole way.  I pushed on it while it was holstered, and sure enough...it went click.

Can't remember how I did on that day, but two different people, two different responses...was I coached or was I helped?  

I know that as an RO, I have a great deal to do, and have commented to new shooters on different things.  After they have been shooting a bit...how long, I don't know, just a gut that they are understanding more, i say nothing.  Established shooters I never say anything to, just as now I get no "breaks" at the line as I'm not new...as it should be.  If I brain spasm, well, that's a part of the game I guess.  Should we kvetch if the weather conditions at a match are better one day than the next?

On any given Sunday....

[Vince Pinto]

Omnia1911,

The issue you raise is covered by 8.2.2.

If the ready condition is, say, kneeling with hands in the surrender position, then the RO must get you to comply before he continues with other range commands.

That's actually assisting all competitors by ensuring that no competitor has an advantageous position.

[Vince Pinto]

My dear Flex,

You have lost your way ..... but fear not, as I will show you the light!

Rule 8.3.1 deals with the " ready position" of the competitor, not his gun. This means he must assume the correct stance (i.e. seated or standing or kneeling or surrender position etc.) before the RO can proceed.

Rule 8.1.2 deals with the "ready condition" of the gun, not the competitor. This requires the chamber to be loaded, the hammer cocked and the safety engaged, however it makes no mention of a magazine being inserted.

Since it's often impossible for the RO to know whether the chamber is loaded, we recently added the words "However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber ...... the official shall not take any action".

Can you imagine the controversy if an American RO warned an American shooter at World Shoot that he's forgotten to insert his magazine, but the same RO did not notice the shooter from IPSC Tabasco with the same problem?

How would you deal with an accusation of favoritism? Or a breach of 8.6.1 ?

This happened to me in Australia in 1997. I was running the Super Squad through their last stage in a tightly contested match, and one of them forgot to reinsert a magazine after loading his chamber. I said nothing. He screwed up but, at the end of the stage, he didn't blame me for his brain fart.

Anyway, he eventually came 4th. If I had said something he probably would have come 1st, but only due to my intervention, not due to his preparedness.

If you really want to assist all competitors, not just the ones that you happen to notice have had a brain fade, then you'll say nothing.

Here endeth the lesson. Praise be the Lord Vader ........

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 11:52 am on Nov. 26, 2002)

[Vince Pinto]

One more thing guys .......

Depsite my posts usually coming from a "major match" perspective, you're actually doing newer shooters a great disservice by forewarning them about loading errors at club matches.

You're supposed to screw up at small matches, so that you hopefully don't make the same mistake at your Area match or the US Nationals.

Let them learn the hard way in small matches and you'll be assisting them to do better at big matches.

[Detlef]

Vince,

the problem with this here in the US is that for years it's been explicit *company policy* to alert shooters to the uninserted magazine. First time I saw John Amidon write about it in FS must have been 2-3 y ago. Unless he writes about it again, reversing his original call(s), this is the way it will be here. I, too, see the fairness problem and find this policy highly suspect. Although you must admit that when you advocate the RO being responsible for proper UASCGCHDH in one thread, and the shooter being responsible for his ready condition in another, you leave the impression of double standard judgement. I'd say USPSA 1, IPSC 1.....

--Detlef

[Flexmoney]

Darth...the force is not with you on this one.

(tongue in cheek mode)      

If we are going to go by the book, then lets go by the book...

8.1 is Handgun Ready Conditions (note the words "Handgun" & "Condition" )

8.2 is "Ready Position.

8.3.1 clearly states the required READY POSITION.

the Ready POSITION is covered in 8.2, with 8.2.1 stating that the hangun is LOADED, made safe and holstered or positioned as specified in the stage briefing.

The wording here, when carefully read (and, as YOU stated in the other thread), requires the RO to assist the shooter...at this point (before the "Are You Ready" is given).

As a matter of fact...the way it is written...a competitor may have a good chance at an arb if the RO doesn't inform the shooter that his gun isn't loaded.

(Yeah, I know that 8.1.2 doesn't mention the mag.  But, as an RO, how can you assume the chamber is loaded if there is no mag in the gun?)

Splitting hairs here...but a potential arb exists (which slows down the match).

I will stand by my earlier post.  In fact, I will state that it is the duty of the RO to ensure the shooter has a loaded blaster.

 and...this isn't timer holding...it is RO'ing, McDonald's is down the hall.

(tongue in cheek mode off)  

[omnia1911]

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Quote: from Flexmoney on 12:31 pm on Nov. 26, 2002

Darth...the force is not with you on this one.

(tongue in cheek mode)      

If we are going to go by the book, then lets go by the book...

8.1 is

Handgun

Ready

Conditions

(note the words "Handgun" & "Condition" )

8.2 is "Ready

Position

.

8.3.1 clearly states the required READY

POSITION

.

the Ready POSITION is covered in 8.2, with 8.2.1 stating that the hangun is LOADED, made safe and holstered or positioned as specified in the stage briefing.

The wording here, when carefully read (and, as YOU stated in the other thread),

requires

the RO to assist the shooter...at this point (before the "Are You Ready" is given).

As a matter of fact...the way it is written...a competitor may have a good chance at an arb if the RO

doesn't

inform the shooter that his gun isn't loaded.

(Yeah, I know that 8.1.2 doesn't mention the mag.  But, as an RO, how can you assume the chamber is loaded if there is no mag in the gun?)

Splitting hairs here...but a potential arb exists (which slows down the match).

I will stand by my earlier post.  In fact, I will state that it is the

duty

of the RO to ensure the shooter has a loaded blaster.

 and...this isn't timer holding...it is RO'ing, McDonald's is down the hall.

(tongue in cheek mode off)  

---

Flex,

I think it all depends on whether you think the word "loaded" in 8.2.1 is a verb or an adjective. I believe you see it as an adjective.

The RO shouldn't assume that the gun is loaded because there is a mag in it either. The mag could be empty.

(Edited by omnia1911 at 1:29 pm on Nov. 26, 2002)

[omnia1911]

---

Quote: from Vince Pinto on 11:11 am on Nov. 26, 2002

Omnia1911,

The issue you raise is covered by 8.2.2.

If the ready condition is, say, kneeling with hands in the surrender position, then the RO must get you to comply before he continues with other range commands.

That's actually assisting

all

competitors by ensuring that no competitor has an advantageous position.

---

The course description did not say where the shooter's hands had to be for the starting position. I had them touching a mag.

[Vince Pinto]

Boy, you guys really make me work up a sweat when you circle the wagons ...... have you no mercy ?

Detlef, The difference is that during unloading, the RO delcares "Gun Clear", but he's not required to declare "Gun loaded" during LAMR.

Flex, So, you're going to focus on the word "loaded", huh?

OK, how do you explain the word "loaded" in (old) 8.2.1 when the stage requires a table start with an unloaded gun? What do you do at the "Load and make ready" command?

Irrespective of your answer (which I'm just dying to see), this is one reason why two months ago we changed 8.2.1 to read "The gun is prepared as specified in the written stage briefing".

Omnia1911 Understood, but eventhough the stage briefing didn't specify where you hands must be, Rule 8.2.3 dictates where they must not be.

[omnia1911]

---

Quote: from Vince Pinto on 3:54 pm on Nov. 26, 2002

Omnia1911 Understood, but eventhough the stage briefing didn't specify where you hands must be, Rule 8.2.3 dictates where they must not be.

---

Yea, that is what I got tagged with, but don't you think that I should have been the recipient of some benevolent assistance from the RO to make sure that I was in the proper starting position before the LAMR command was given. It's tough starting a stage down 10 before I fire the first shot. :-)

[omnia1911]

---

Quote: from Vince Pinto on 3:54 pm on Nov. 26, 2002

OK, how do you explain the word "loaded" in (old) 8.2.1 when the stage requires a table start with an unloaded gun? What do you do at the "Load and make ready" command?

---

OK Vince, I'll throw you a softball.

There has been alot of postings lately regarding the proper use of range communications per 8.3. Some felt that there should be absolutely no deviation from how they are written in the rule book. Do you still give the LAMR command when the course description requires the the gun start unloaded?

[Flexmoney]

Omnia,

I don't know where that procedural would come from???

By the book, you would not have "assumed the required ready position".  It would be just like you standing there with your hand on the butt of your gun...

Procedurals are dished out in Section 10, right?

Vince,

8.2.1 says ...as specified in the stage briefing.

I am sure the origianl writers of these rules didn't expect us to be sitting here debating them.  Perhaps the re-writters ought to though.

I certainly see an area that could be arb'ed.  It would be interesting to see how it would come out.

Until such time, I have to go with my training...which is to assist the shooter.  That also happens to follow my read on the current rules...and, the direction given by our USPSA Range Master (Arnie Chrisianson).

Oh, then there is this golden pearl of wisdom...

When in doubt, the benefit goes to the shooter.

[Vince Pinto]

Omnia,

Yes, if you assumed a ready position with your hands touching your mag, I would certainly stop you (without a penalty) and ask you to comply with the 8.2.2 start position.

If a poorly written briefing didn't specify where your hands should be, I wouldn't care where you put them as long as you were not touching your equipment.

And, yes, I state published range commands to the letter.

However if it's an unloaded start position, my written stage briefing would explain what's required when I say "LAMR" (e.g unloaded gun on the table in the marked area, first mag in the top drawer etc.).

Remember the word "Load" in "LAMR" is not literal - the body of the rule explains that it means "prepare the handgun in accordance with the stage briefing".

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

Rule 8.6.1 is crystal clear. If an RO gives a competitor any advice (other than a safety warning) during a COF, then he's in breach of that rule.

Rule 8.2.1 says "as specified" but, unless the stage briefing specifically states "magazine inserted", then default Rule 8.1.2 applies and the magazine is not a requirement.

The term "benefit of doubt" is highly misused and abused. The term only appears in one place in the book (Rule 9.7.6.4), and it only refers to a scoring issue.

Anyway, I realise your mind is make up and I'll never sway you. No hard feelings.

Arnie has invited me to work a match with him next July in the US, so I'll certainly use that opportunity to discuss these matters with him.

[omnia1911]

From the Ornery Region: Ya done good Vince.

[Flexmoney]

...but...vince...you JUST said that you would stop Omnia and ask him to comply (get his hand off the mag).

Under the rule...you should just stand there and say... not a thing.

Same thing with a shooter that is supposed to have their hands at surrender, but having them hanging relaxed at side.  As the RO, you would assist them.  You would tell them the correct start position.

The same logic (and rule) applies to loading the gun.

------

OK, as long as we are on this wording stuff...

8.3.4  "Start Signal" - The signal to begin the course of fire.

???  Can the COF start in 8.3.1 and 8.3.4 ???

[Flexmoney]

Oh...and 8.6.1 is clear.  But, it not in question here.

(Nice try ...but, that circular logic isn't gonna trick me up that easy big guy.)      

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

You continue to incorrectly insist that an RO ensuring a competitor is in the required start position before "Standby" is "assisting the competitor". That is simply not true.

The RO is merely ensuring that the competitor's hands, feet, body, stance and gun placement comply with the written stage briefing before proceeding (see 8.3.1).

1) If the written stage briefing does not specify the position of the hands, fine, but the competitor cannot have them touching his equipment. Correcting this before "Standby" is not assisting the competitor. It's observing a basic tenet of IPSC  (loosely stated in 5.3.1).

2) However if the start position in a written stage briefing  requires the competitor to hold a magazine (contrary to our basic tenet), fine, then everyone gets a procedural under 8.2.3. No problem. It's fair but stupid.

3) Rule 10.1.4.7 deals with the competitor creeping (whether he gets his hand to his equipment or not) after "Standby". If he takes an advantage, he gets a penalty. If he touches his gun as well, I would only issue a single penalty to avoid "double jeopardy".

4) Rule 8.6.1 deals with assistance, and the RO cannot say a damn thing to the competitor once the COF commences (on LAMR) unless it's to get him to comply with the start position stated in the written stage briefing or if it's to do with safety.

5) Unless the stage briefing states "magazine inserted", then Section 8.1 prevails and that only requires a loaded chamber, not a magazine inserted. If the RO warns one guy and fails to warn the next guy .....

6) If, on the beep, the competitor draws his gun and goes "click" and when he racks his slide nothing comes out, then I know he didn't have a loaded chamber and I would be required to stop him because he did not comply with 8.1 as presently stated (since modifed by IPSC).i

7) Yes, 8.3.1 and 8.3.4 conflict, but IPSC has already corrected this anomaly by changing 8.3.4 to say "The signal to begin shooting" (I don't know if USPSA will follow suit).

Anyway, I'm done here. There's nothing more I can say.

[Steve Anderson]

Jeez.

You guys need to go shooting.

SA

[Flexmoney]

Hi Steve.  I didn't figure anybody was reading this except for Vince and I (by now).  

Vince,

I'm not trying to push your buttons, just playing some devil's advocate here.  (well, I may trying to push your buttons some..but only in fun)

A big part of this exercise (for me), is to point out that...even with a well thought out and established set of rules...their can be different interpretations.  It doesn't matter what I think, it doesn't matter what Vince thinks, or whoever...  

On the "assistance"...opps.  I should have said help.  You are right, 8.6 clearly says "assistance".  i was under the mistaken impression that it was "coaching".  That doesn't change the context of the debate...just the wording.  My bad.  Please just insert "help" anywhere I mistakenly said "assist".

[Skywalker]

Sorry to stir the pot over the edge Vince,

but I really don't understand .

It seems to me there is a conflict in rules, or at least some clarification needed.

Rule 8.1 (proposed change) adds the sentence "However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber prior to commencement of

the stage, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Official shall not take any action", thus I could argue a competitor could actually start a COF without complying with a written stage briefing stating loaded handgun (round in chamber) or with rule 8.1.2.1 regarding Self-Loading pistols ("“Single action” - chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged." ).

But I thought a competitor wasn't allowed to start a COF if he wasn't compliant with ready conditions.

Furthermore, you state that:

"6) If, on the beep, the competitor draws his gun and goes "click" and when he racks his slide nothing comes out, then I know he didn't have a loaded chamber and I would be required to stop him because he did not comply with 8.1 as presently stated (since modifed by IPSC)."

Does it make any sense to allow a shooter to start a COF even if he doesn't comply with ready condition, and then stopping him after start signal because he didn't comply?

Wouldn't it be better to remove the added sentence to rule 8.1, leaving the RO the possibility to correct the improper ready condition of the competitor, without wasting any time for starting, stopping, and re-starting under the proper conditions?