Feeding issue with the CANIK Rival

[Robsondmachado]

Hello! It's been a while since the last time I was on this forum seeking solutions for my beloved Canik Rival.

Fantastic equipment, but it has been giving me some headaches during competitions.

Therefore, I would like to check with some of my colleagues if they could instruct me on what to do to find a viable solution.

First, I need to mention the configuration my Canik Rival is using.

14-pound recoil spring - Rune Tactical
Tungsten guide rod w74
6-pound striker spring

All other parts are factory original.

Issue:

During a match, after a few shots, the next round to be chambered gets stuck on the edge of the barrel's ramp.

I have considered possible reasons for this type of issue, but so far I have not been able to resolve them. I have been using painted lead tips, in various height configurations, namely: 28.5 to 29.30cm.

Apologies for the measurements, but that's our standard here.

In all cases, I noticed that at some point, they failed to be properly guided onto the ramp and got stuck, preventing both the magazine and the round from being extracted when pulling the slide back.

The only way is to put a finger inside the slide and give a slight tilt for the round to go up the ramp and chamber.

As for fixing the issue, it has become a habit, but during a match, whether precision shooting or in IPSC, we know it can greatly interfere with a stage.

I thought the magazine spring might be weak, but since all failures occurred even with new magazines, I ruled out this possibility.

Another thing I noticed was that when a round is chambered in the pistol, the round immediately below it is slightly pushed forward, could this be causing it to hit the edge of the ramp?

Honestly, I don't know how to resolve this issue, and if any colleague has experienced a similar situation and can help, I would appreciate it.

Just a note that, obviously, metal tips will not cause this issue, as they will smoothly slide up the ramp, even if they hit the edge.

Have a good week, everyone!

 

CANIK Video

 

 

[Chutist]

That type of failure is often magazine related.  Have the mag springs been replaced?  Mag's and followers are CLEAN?

[Robsondmachado]

Hello and thanks for your help!
I have a total of 6 mags, 2 of which came with the CANIK RIVAL and another 4 that I bought at the beginning of the year.
I can tell you that the ones that came with the CANIK are still new and haven't even fired 1000 rounds each.
The other magazines are clean, some with less than 50 shots.
All my magazines are cleaned before the competition.
These occurrences happened even when the mags were cleaned at the start of the tests.

 

[BritinUSA]

• Check that your primers are fully seated.
• Is the slide/guide rod fully lubed ?
• Check the breach face is not too dirty
• Check the extractor groove, carbon build up can stop the case from sliding under the extractor.
• Are the cases worn, especially on the base ?
• Check that the bullet is not rubbing on the inside front of the magazine.
• Compare OAL of factory ammunition (which you say works) to make sure the rounds are correct length.
• Have you run the rounds over a chronograph, what was the velocity/bullet weight ?

Edited June 25 by BritinUSA

[Robsondmachado]

33 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Check that your primers are fully seated.

Yes

 

33 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Is the slide/guide rod fully lubed ?

Yes

 

43 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Check the breach face is not too dirty

It´s clean

 

43 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Check the extractor groove, carbon build up can stop the case from sliding under the extractor.

It´s Clean

 

44 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Are the cases worn, especially on the base ?

The cases used were new

 

46 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Check that the bullet is not rubbing on the inside front of the magazine.

No

 

46 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Compare OAL of factory ammunition (which you say works) to make sure the rounds are correct length.

OAL factory ammunition - 29,30
OAL personnel - 28,5 to 29,30

 

48 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Have you run the rounds over a chronograph, what was the velocity/bullet weight ?

Yes - Prochrono DLX
135 grains - average 972 fps
140 grains - average 975 fps

[BritinUSA]

Did you see this post by any chance?

 

 

[bigtimelarry]

I Quit using coated bullets in my Rivals because of that same problem. I use RN only now and never have an issue anymore. 

Edited June 25 by bigtimelarry

[Robsondmachado]

7 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Did you see this post by any chance?

Good morning!

 

I just read the link you sent me and found it interesting.

 

Could it be an alternative to return to the original spring guide rod or try with a lighter bolt spring than the one I am using, in this case, 13 pounds.

 

I have already tested this with the 13-pound spring, even changing the firing pin spring to a 4-pound one, as the 6-pound/29newtons exerts force against the recoil system and may not lock the bolt completely.

 

I find the bolt too heavy for this type of spring and believe that at some point during a match, it may fail to complete the closing cycle properly, which, in essence, will result in a locking malfunction.

 

Regarding the firing pin spring, it is another issue that I will need to solve because any incorrect seating of the primer or the use of a harder primer will lead to a failure to ignite.

 

Here in my country, we use our national, Argentine, and American primers.

 

The exception is a single Argentine primer that is too hard and requires a minimum necessary force on the firing pin to ignite.

 

I am not sure about the American primers (CCI, FIOCHI, Winchester), the first one is more common to find, but I believe you could offer an opinion on this matter.

 

Regarding the magazine, it was the first thing I thought could be causing some problem. I saw in the reports of friends on this matter and thought about how to solve this issue.

 

All my magazines hold 18 cartridges. It is almost impossible to load them with 18 due to the pressure in the assembly, not to mention that there is some difficulty in loading in the equipment. Therefore, my maximum load always remains at 17.

 

I will bring a video or a photo to help bring a better understanding later.

 

One observation I want to make and find somewhat strange is the fact that every time a round in the mag is fed after a shot, it causes damage to the lead tip, which continues to indicate that during bolt cycling, the tip literally acts against the edge of the ramp.

 

Soft lead tips are more easily damaged, but overall, percentage-wise compared to harder lead tips, they have fewer malfunctions like the one I demonstrated in the images.

 

Regardless, all of them malfunction!

 

I forgot to mention one thing about the reading I did. All my cases eject correctly after firing and none of them get stuck in the extractor or the bolt, which in this case would be another type of malfunction.

 

Edited June 25 by Robsondmachado

[Robsondmachado]

5 hours ago, bigtimelarry said:

I Quit using coated bullets in my Rivals because of that same problem. I use RN only now and never have an issue anymore. 

Good morning!
What does the acronym RN stand for?

[toby1304]

I have been running Falcon Bullets 135’s with an OAL of 1.09 with zero issues. Any longer than that and I start have feeding issues.

[Robsondmachado]

Há 48 minutos, Robsondmachado disse:

Todas as minhas revistas têm 18 cartuchos. É quase impossível carregá-los com 18 devido à pressão na montagem, sem contar que há alguma dificuldade no carregamento no equipamento. Portanto, minha carga máxima sempre permanece em 17.

 

Vou trazer um vídeo ou uma foto para ajudar a trazer um melhor entendimento depois.

 

 

[Robsondmachado]

34 minutes ago, toby1304 said:

Eu tenho executado Falcon Bullets 135 com um OAL de 1,09 com zero edições. Mais do que isso e começo a ter problemas de alimentação.

I fired a round with factory training ammunition, the total height of which is between 27.90 (1,099) and 28.15 (1,108) millimeters.

 

As I only fired a few rounds, I couldn't test the exhaust to see if there were any malfunctions.

 

This may also be a solution that I will have to test to validate.

[Robsondmachado]

Simulating the crash again......

 

For some reason that I can't figure out, when the empty case is ejected, the ammunition in the mag, which has already been thrown a little forward, seems to go down and when it returns, it hits the edge of the ramp, causing a power failure.

 

Simulating Crash

[Chutist]

I watched the video. 

Do you have the same issue with factory ammo?  

I wonder if feeding would be improved if the overall length (OAL) was longer?

Oh and I saw you ask what "RN" meant, it's Round Nose.  It refers to the shape of the bullet.

 

It also looked like the round was sitting nose down in the mag.  So when the slide pushed the round forward, it just trapped the nose under the feed ramp.

[Robsondmachado]

3 hours ago, Chutist said:

Do you have the same issue with factory ammo? 

Hi, what's up?

The factory ammunition is jacketed (full metal), and there's no way it can get stuck in the ramp.

 

3 hours ago, Chutist said:

I wonder if feeding would be improved if the overall length (OAL) was longer?

The OAL of the ammunition has already been set to the maximum of the SAAMI table and did not bring favorable results, presenting the same problem.

 

3 hours ago, Chutist said:

Oh and I saw you ask what "RN" meant, it's Round Nose.  It refers to the shape of the bullet.

It really depends on who makes the tips. They are usually ogival, with some having a thinner nose and others wider.

Those with thinner noses accept larger OALs very well, unlike those with wider noses.

 

3 hours ago, Chutist said:

It also looked like the round was sitting nose down in the mag.  So when the slide pushed the round forward, it just trapped the nose under the feed ramp.

Exactly!

Only this problem occurs after a round is ejected from the CANIK and when it returns, it is pushed against the edge of the feed ramp.

The question is why this happens and what could be causing it?

[Robsondmachado]

Another important point is very logical.

You can't "simulate" a breakdown manually, because there won't be all the factors necessary for it to occur.

To make the video, I obviously had to place the ammunition in the position that causes the failure.

I have other videos of tests I did in a closed booth, but only after the failure had occurred.

[Chutist]

3 hours ago, Robsondmachado said:

Hi, what's up?

The factory ammunition is jacketed (full metal), and there's no way it can get stuck in the ramp.

 

The OAL of the ammunition has already been set to the maximum of the SAAMI table and did not bring favorable results, presenting the same problem.

 

I assure you factory FMJ ammo can get stuck under the ramp.  If the factory ammo you have isn't getting stuck, it would be good to examine the differences. 

 

The picture you posted showed 1.089 inches (27.67mm), I don't think that is anywhere near the maximum OAL of 9mm.

I have Winchester in front of me that is 1.165 OAL and my reloads with a bullet similar to yours are 1.135.  

 

Hope you find the answer. 

 

[Robsondmachado]

1 hour ago, Chutist said:

I assure you factory FMJ ammo can get stuck under the ramp.

Hello again!
I don't really believe that's possible, not least because of the kind of damage you can see on a coated lead tip when it hits the ramp before feeding.

 

1 hour ago, Chutist said:

If the factory ammo you have isn't getting stuck, it would be good to examine the differences.

You can't make a comparison with FMJs and coated lead tips.

 

FMJs slide down the ramp and coated lead tips suffer some damage, however small, when they hit the ramp.

 

They are totally different structures, and of course I could solve this inconvenience by using the jacketed ones, but I would be paying twice as much to assemble the ammunition.

 

To understand a little about what I'm saying, under the current government we have a lot of bureaucracy in our country when it comes to acquiring factory ammunition and reloading supplies.

 

Here we pay around $50.00 for a box of 50 rounds of ammunition, and for you, that would be around 5 or more boxes?

 

A reload, with all the supplies, costs around $0.40, which means it's as if I were paying $20.00 for a box of 50 rounds.

This figure is for a reload with coated lead tips. FMJ tips, I would add an extra $0.20 to the final price.

 

I'm being modest!
 

1 hour ago, Chutist said:

The picture you posted showed 1.089 inches (27.67mm), I don't think that is anywhere near the maximum OAL of 9mm.

The image with the OAL, was just to mention what the other user, toby, commented about the factory ammunition he uses and I ended up complementing it by saying that the lowest OAL that the ammunition leaves the factory with, has an OAL of 1.099 to 1.108.

 

This is considered training ammunition with coated lead tips (paint).

 

1 hour ago, Chutist said:

I have Winchester in front of me that is 1.165 OAL and my reloads with a bullet similar to yours are 1.135.  

Interesting 1.165 (29.60mm)?

 

1.135 (28.85) is usually the standard for reloads we make for some pistols, but 1.123 (28.50) is used as standard to run in any equipment without crashing.
 

Depending on the shape of the tip, it is possible to assemble ammunition with the maximum OAL established by the SAAMI table, as is the case with the Winchester you mentioned.
 

[Robsondmachado]

Good morning!

 

I received an inquiry and I'm going to share what I "believe" may be related to the possible problem.

 

The lips of the CANIK magazine are a little wider than those of another brand, although both are produced by "mecgar".

 

What I've noticed is that the shape of the CANIK magazine is more inclined towards the front and this can cause the ammunition to advance in the magazine.

 

I'm posting a picture of both magazines (mecgar), the one on the right being CANIK for evaluation.

 

The perception is very clear and it is now possible to understand that this may be helping to cause the ammunition feed failure in the equipment.

 

I replaced the CANIK spring and ammunition path with a higher pressure one, but it didn't solve the problem.

 

The one in the left image has an upward path, a spring with greater pressure and this prevents the ammunition from moving forward.

 

The CANIK one, on the right, has a forward path and there's not much resistance.

 

I think there are other ways of solving this problem, such as:

 

1. coated (painted) lead tips, can be solved by decreasing the OAL to 28.00/27.00mm?;
2. Full metal tips;
3. the possibility of a structural change to the magazine or track?

[HesedTech]

On 6/24/2024 at 5:40 PM, Robsondmachado said:

Honestly, I don't know how to resolve this issue, and if any colleague has experienced a similar situation and can help, I would appreciate it.

I don't have a Canik, but had a similar problem with Tanfoglio. After a lot of anguish with changing springs, polishing parts, new followers and more it came down to the magazine catch. The magazine catch was undersized and did not hold the mag all the way to the top of the well. 

 

After a quick internet search I noticed the Canik Rival has some seating issues with base pads.

 

Check to see if you have up and down play when the mag is inserted in the well. Or maybe even though it's latching into the gun your mag isn't fully in place.

 

The pics and video look like you ammo is not high enough even though it rest properly against the feed lips of the magazine.

 

Basically when the magazine is fully in place there should be little up or down movement in the well and the bullet tip should point directly at the center of the feed ramp. The next round will move slightly forward, however it too should be pointing at the center of the feed ramp.

 

 

[Thomas918]

The magazine on the left looks like a totally different design. My mags look like the one on the right. I have exclusively used a wolf extra power mag spring and +4 extensions for my mags for the past 2 years. I haven’t had a feed related malfunction in 10k rounds(maybe more). Before that I had used the stock spring from the 18rd mag with the +4 extension and had rounds nose diving and hitting the feed ramp. I’ve used these mags in the TP9sfx, Polymer frame rival, and 2 steel frame rivals.

[Robsondmachado]

20 hours ago, HesedTech said:

Check to see if you have up and down play when the mag is inserted in the well. Or maybe even though it's latching into the gun your mag isn't fully in place.

Yes, there is a certain amount of play, I don't know if this would be normal, but I believe it could be an additional factor in causing the problem.

I'll make some videos to show you.

 

20 hours ago, HesedTech said:

The pics and video look like you ammo is not high enough even though it rest properly against the feed lips of the magazine.

In the CANIK magazine, it sits at a straight angle to the ramp.

 

 

20 hours ago, HesedTech said:

Basically when the magazine is fully in place there should be little up or down movement in the well and the bullet tip should point directly at the center of the feed ramp. The next round will move slightly forward, however it too should be pointing at the center of the feed ramp.

The problem lies precisely in the subsequent ammunition that is thrown forward and can hit the edge of the ramp, causing the bolt to lock.

 

[Robsondmachado]

11 hours ago, Thomas918 said:

The magazine on the left looks like a totally different design.

The magazine on the left is TAURUS and I put it in just to demonstrate the angle of attack between the two.

 

11 hours ago, Thomas918 said:

I haven’t had a feed related malfunction in 10k rounds(maybe more).

Could you please post the link to the parts you bought?

 

This could be a possible solution and I had already thought about it, but I didn't want to run the risk of making an unnecessary purchase that might not bring a definitive solution.

 

I have 6 sets of magazines, 4 of which I bought recently.

 

For IPSC competitions, I have no way of fitting the extension so as not to leave Production, but if the spring and follower solve the problem, I'll be satisfied.

 

[Thomas918]

If you aren’t using mag extensions they aren’t needed I think. I watched your videos and I saw your slide was getting caught when charging a round. I’ve never seen that. It seems like a round is rubbing on the slide as it travels rearward. It’s probably pushing the round’s nose downward and then it’s getting caught on the feed ramp on return to battery. Keep us updated on any fixes you are working through

[HesedTech]

On 6/27/2024 at 8:00 AM, Robsondmachado said:

Yes, there is a certain amount of play, I don't know if this would be normal, but I believe it could be an additional factor in causing the problem.

I'll make some videos to show you.

 

In the CANIK magazine, it sits at a straight angle to the ramp.

 

 

The problem lies precisely in the subsequent ammunition that is thrown forward and can hit the edge of the ramp, causing the bolt to lock.

 

The bullet should not point at the bottom edge of the feed ramp.

The next round in all my auto feed guns moves a bit forward, just like the one in your pics, when the round above it is fed. The problem is it is too low and something is wrong with your magazine alignment. 

 

I looked up the Canik problems and there's plenty. Here's a video of one person's fix, not sure if it matches your issue:

 

And another:

It seems to me, as I pointed out, the problem may be magazine fit and alignment.