Reloading Blues for 9MM Major

[clw42]

I used to use RMR exclusively.  However, with their price increases over the last couple of years, primers costing what they cost, I made the switch to blue bullets last year.  The cost difference is ~$350/12K, that's including all of the discounts I'm aware of for both types of bullets.

 

There's two things that bug the hell out of me when using blue bullets.  One, the bullet feeder will stop feeding bullets for some reason.  I'll have to manually lift up on the dropper, empty what's in the sleeve and fill it up again.  I assumed that the internals or bearings were getting gunked up from the coating, so I've taken it apart and cleaned it several times.  There's a little bit of blue coating on the top where the bullets enter the dropper, but that's it.  So I don't know what is happening there.

 

The second thing is my OAL.  I have it set up for 1.165 (Redding Micrometer Die) and I get a range between 1.155 and 1.173

 

I recently loaded a bunch of 124GR RMR flat point match bullets for minor, and the variance was between 1.123 and 1.127 with a set point of 1.125 which is about what I'd expect for range brass.

 

What I found was that the blue bullets measured between .614" and .629" (50 sample size) in OAL so that combined with the mixed headstamp brass would account for the OAL variances in completed rounds.

 

What I still can't figure out is why the bullet feeder stops feeding.

 

I'm loading on an automated Dillon 1100.  All of my brass is decapped, sized and expanded (Lyman M-Die) on a 650 prior to loading on the 1100.  So the 1100 is swaging, priming, powder, bullet, seat, crimp.

 

I'm not sure if this is enough to make me go back to the RMR JHP's, but I'm strongly considering it. 

[36873687]

I loaded bunch blues in 9 major .356 were much more accurate. As for bullet

feeder go pro die. Best investment i made. 

[Jsjac]

Not sure or the shape bullet you are using. 

I have been using the conical bullet and it tips in the feeder and hags up on the square shoulder. 

I  use a small cone shape stone to taper the spot where the bullet was hanging up. 

[clw42]

2 hours ago, Jsjac said:

Not sure or the shape bullet you are using. 

I have been using the conical bullet and it tips in the feeder and hags up on the square shoulder. 

I  use a small cone shape stone to taper the spot where the bullet was hanging up. 

 

I'm using round nose.  I think I figured it out.  The plastic tube that feeds into the brass piece came unglued which looks to have been causing the bullets to not drop or like yours, get hung up on the shoulder (if you were referring to the square shoulder in the brass fitting).  I'd get five that fed fine, then nothing.  As I watched, I noticed that the bullets would stop dropping entirely. 

I have a habit of grabbing at that part of the tube when I want to move or remove the die.  I must have worked it loose.  I epoxied it last night so we'll see if that was the actual problem.

 

 

16 hours ago, 36873687 said:

I loaded bunch blues in 9 major .356 were much more accurate. As for bullet

feeder go pro die. Best investment i made. 

 

I'm using .356 as well.  Looks like the pro die it out of stock at the moment, but I'll definitely keep an eye out for it.

[HOGRIDER]

12 hours ago, clw42 said:

 

I'm using round nose.  I think I figured it out.  The plastic tube that feeds into the brass piece came unglued which looks to have been causing the bullets to not drop or like yours, get hung up on the shoulder (if you were referring to the square shoulder in the brass fitting).  I'd get five that fed fine, then nothing.  As I watched, I noticed that the bullets would stop dropping entirely. 

I have a habit of grabbing at that part of the tube when I want to move or remove the die.  I must have worked it loose.  I epoxied it last night so we'll see if that was the actual problem.

 

 

 

I'm using .356 as well.  Looks like the pro die it out of stock at the moment, but I'll definitely keep an eye out for it.

Mark7 is showing in stock at the moment...........

 

https://www.markvii-loading.com/accessories/bullet-feeders-23/mr-bulletfeederr-pro-dropper-assembly.html

 

Also Midway shows "one" in stock........

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2670185085?pid=932546

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by HOGRIDER
update

[clw42]

2 hours ago, HOGRIDER said:

Mark7 is showing in stock at the moment...........

 

https://www.markvii-loading.com/accessories/bullet-feeders-23/mr-bulletfeederr-pro-dropper-assembly.html

 

Also Midway shows "one" in stock........

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2670185085?pid=932546

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Hog, I almost ordered from MK7 until they wanted $30 for shipping.

 

 

Turns out, the problem wasn't what I thought it was.  I've had the MBF for five years now and I've loaded all sorts of bullets.  The Blues I'm currently loading, I've loaded 10's of thousands without a problem.  That's what made me think it could have been the tube coming loose.

 

What I think is happening is that the bullets are stopping on the little ledge between the brass piece and the die assembly, because it will feed five, six, seven, then the bullets stop falling and feeding.  If I give it a nudge they fall and load the next however many.

 

I took the die out and cleaned it again, as well as polished the inlet to the dropper.  My problem is, I can't really get in there with anything to really polish it as well as may be needed.

 

Another thought I had was that maybe there's too much spring tension when the tool head is all the way down.  I'll tinker with that in the morning.  I did cut quite a bit off, but I think I left enough behind to allow for some additional slack.  I thought the typical problem with that scenario though was that you'd get a bullet avalanche.

 

I've submitted an email to DAA.  Maybe I just need a new die assembly. 

[Jsjac]

The area that I am taking about is at the top of the dropper die itself. 

I used a cone shaped stone in my Dremel tool to remove the square corners. To form a funnel. 

Then I polished it. Since then I have had no problem with bullets hanging up. 

 

[clw42]

7 hours ago, Jsjac said:

The area that I am taking about is at the top of the dropper die itself. 

I used a cone shaped stone in my Dremel tool to remove the square corners. To form a funnel. 

Then I polished it. Since then I have had no problem with bullets hanging up. 

 

 

Yes, DAA sent me a video of basically rounding off that edge with a countersink drill bit.  I did that, polished everything real well, like shiny smooth.  Still sticking.  I am going to give it one more go again tomorrow and see what happens.

[clw42]

Still getting 2-3 stoppages every 20 or so rounds.  I might try a new standard dropper die since the Pro Assembly is out of stock everywhere aside from MK7.  It's just irritating, because I've literally loaded a ton of RN bullets, Blues included, without a problem...until now.  All of a sudden it's an issue.  If it were the dropper die though, I would have thought this clean up job would fix it.

Edited January 27, 2023 by clw42

[HOGRIDER]

6 minutes ago, clw42 said:

Still getting 2-3 stoppages every 20 or so rounds.  I might try a new standard dropper die since the Pro Assembly is out of stock everywhere aside from MK7.  It's just irritating, because I've literally loaded a ton of RN bullets, Blues included, without a problem...until now.  All of a sudden it's an issue.  If it were the dropper die though, I would have thought this clean up job would fix it.

@clw42Something came to mind where another user was pulling his hair out experiencing a very rare situation.  The Pro Dropper you have now, was it purchased as an original 9mm dropper with the yellow zip tie up top?  Reason I ask is the other user having difficulties was using a different caliber dropper and decided to load 9mm with it.  Ended up he had forgot to change out the dropper ball bearings to the correct size for the caliber he was swapping to.

 

Installed the correct size bearings and fixed his completely!  9mm should be using 4.5mm balls.

 

Just thinking out loud............

[clw42]

7 hours ago, HOGRIDER said:

@clw42Something came to mind where another user was pulling his hair out experiencing a very rare situation.  The Pro Dropper you have now, was it purchased as an original 9mm dropper with the yellow zip tie up top?  Reason I ask is the other user having difficulties was using a different caliber dropper and decided to load 9mm with it.  Ended up he had forgot to change out the dropper ball bearings to the correct size for the caliber he was swapping to.

 

Installed the correct size bearings and fixed his completely!  9mm should be using 4.5mm balls.

 

Just thinking out loud............

 

I appreciate the thought and the outside of the box possibility, but  I only load two calibers, 9mm and .223.  I hardly ever swap the MBF for .223 since I don't really load that much of it.

 

Like I said, I've had this thing for five years, loaded over 100K now and this problem is completely out of nowhere.  I've even loaded Blue Bullets from this very same lot without a problem.  All I did was change from loading RMR Flat point for minor, to loading blue bullets for major.  I use the same tool head, just swap out the powder measure, set the Redding Die to the correct seating depth, tweak the crimp, swap out bullets and set the MBF Collator for the different type of bullet.  It's a bit of a process so I typically load a few thousand minor at a time towards the end of the season just to mix things up a bit, then switch back to major around now to gear up for the upcoming season.

 

The one thing that changed was going automated.  I wonder if maybe this was always an issue, but was masked by cranking on the press.  As it is now, I have to tap the dropper so the bullets fall and the dropper refills.  I suppose it's possible that cranking the press was enough movement to keep any bullets that may hang up to actually fall, keeping things flowing.  Now I'm depriming and resizing on a different press so the automated 1100 is swaging, priming, powder drop, bullet feed, seat and crimp.  So there's no real force required and the automation makes it all the more smooth and consistent.

 

I have no clue. I'm completely flummoxed and throwing crap on the wall to see what sticks.  I doesn't help that I have low level OCD and won't be able to not mess with it.  By the time I'm done shaping and polishing this dropper die, it's going to be a totally useless nub...lmao.

[clw42]

Well, this is embarrassing to admit, but here we are.

 

I filed and sanded and polished the dropper die again this morning.  It's literally a shiny, glowing funnel.  There's not a single ledge or ledge like surface to be seen.  I placed bullets almost horizontally on the top and they corrected and slid down the die with ease.  I put everything back together, fill the system and everything falls into place as it should.  I load one round and the bullets don't fall.  If I had hair to pull out, my scalp would have been a bloody mess.  I tried a few more rounds with the same result.

 

So, I took everything down again, but this time I removed the polycarbonate tube and brass fitting from the switch so I could see how that whole assembly was working together.  I filled it by hand and gently activated the die so a bullet would drop, then another then another.  Crap, nothing obvious there.  That is until I pull the brass fitting and tube off and four bullets weren't falling out from the bottom (through the brass fitting).  So I flip it over, dump the bullets and put a flashlight at the end so I could see inside the tube.  I'm initially thinking there's a burr on the brass.  Turns out, the little silicone o'ring deteriorates over time.  A small piece of it was pinched between the tube and the brass and blocking the bullets from dropping consistently.  It was never the damn dropper die at all!!!!

 

TL;DR - Long Story Short Version:

Check the little silicone o'rings, they go bad over time, and will gum up the works.

[HOGRIDER]

6 minutes ago, clw42 said:

Well, this is embarrassing to admit, but here we are.

 

I filed and sanded and polished the dropper die again this morning.  It's literally a shiny, glowing funnel.  There's not a single ledge or ledge like surface to be seen.  I placed bullets almost horizontally on the top and they corrected and slid down the die with ease.  I put everything back together, fill the system and everything falls into place as it should.  I load one round and the bullets don't fall.  If I had hair to pull out, my scalp would have been a bloody mess.  I tried a few more rounds with the same result.

 

So, I took everything down again, but this time I removed the polycarbonate tube and brass fitting from the switch so I could see how that whole assembly was working together.  I filled it by hand and gently activated the die so a bullet would drop, then another then another.  Crap, nothing obvious there.  That is until I pull the brass fitting and tube off and four bullets weren't falling out from the bottom (through the brass fitting).  So I flip it over, dump the bullets and put a flashlight at the end so I could see inside the tube.  I'm initially thinking there's a burr on the brass.  Turns out, the little silicone o'ring deteriorates over time.  A small piece of it was pinched between the tube and the brass and blocking the bullets from dropping consistently.  It was never the damn dropper die at all!!!!

 

TL;DR - Long Story Short Version:

Check the little silicone o'rings, they go bad over time, and will gum up the works.

Great to hear you finally found the problem!  

 

Any detail pics to share with others?

 

[clw42]

24 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said:

Great to hear you finally found the problem!  

 

Any detail pics to share with others?

 

 

No, I wish I had though!  I didn't even think to snap a couple of pictures.  I was so caught up in slapping myself in the head for not thinking to check something other than the dropper die, while also being elated that I found the problem that I fixed it and put everything back together to run some more tests. 

 

It would have been a good tutorial though...dammit.

 

 

[HOGRIDER]

4 hours ago, clw42 said:

 

No, I wish I had though!  I didn't even think to snap a couple of pictures.  I was so caught up in slapping myself in the head for not thinking to check something other than the dropper die, while also being elated that I found the problem that I fixed it and put everything back together to run some more tests. 

 

It would have been a good tutorial though...dammit.

 

 

Understand!

I had disassembled the pro dropper assembly for a good cleaning when moving the MBF over to the Apex 10, and don't remember seeing any "o-rings" in the brass tube assembly.  But I wasn't looking for anything either; just a good swab with an alcohol patch and thorough cleaning of the dropper assembly.

 

I'll definitely file this thread for future reference!

 

[clw42]

3 hours ago, HOGRIDER said:

Understand!

I had disassembled the pro dropper assembly for a good cleaning when moving the MBF over to the Apex 10, and don't remember seeing any "o-rings" in the brass tube assembly.  But I wasn't looking for anything either; just a good swab with an alcohol patch and thorough cleaning of the dropper assembly.

 

I'll definitely file this thread for future reference!

 

 

It's between the tube and the brass, and the tube and the upper portion (with the switch).  So if you didn't take those apart then you wouldn't have seen it.  Also, the pro may be different.  New versions of the standard dropper assembly might be different too for all I know.  I'll snap a picture of the upper one.  The lower one is gone, and I've removed the gooey mess and re-glued the tube to the brass.

 

 

[clw42]

On 1/28/2023 at 3:56 PM, HOGRIDER said:

Understand!

I had disassembled the pro dropper assembly for a good cleaning when moving the MBF over to the Apex 10, and don't remember seeing any "o-rings" in the brass tube assembly.  But I wasn't looking for anything either; just a good swab with an alcohol patch and thorough cleaning of the dropper assembly.

 

I'll definitely file this thread for future reference!

 

 

Upon closer inspection of the upper portion, I now think it's actually the adhesive and not an actual o'ring.  Where the tube inserts into the brass fitting, there wasn't any residue so it looked like an o'ring.

 

 

Very similar to this, but without the glue touching it so I thought they were two separate things.

[HOGRIDER]

3 hours ago, clw42 said:

 

Upon closer inspection of the upper portion, I now think it's actually the adhesive and not an actual o'ring.  Where the tube inserts into the brass fitting, there wasn't any residue so it looked like an o'ring.

 

Very similar to this, but without the glue touching it so I thought they were two separate things.

@clw42I just took my OEM dropper out of the spare parts box; and it appears the only thing joining the clear tube to the bottom weight and top switch unit is some form of clear adhesive.  And I can easily see how it could appear as an o-ring if there was a slight separation of of the tube from either end!

 

Glad you finally got to the cause of all your aggravation!