Shotgun Pointing Vs Aiming?

[ArnisAndyz]

I'm shooting my first 3 gun this Saturday! I learned how to use a shotgun as a kid dove hunting with my uncle, where you naturally point and focus on the target rather than the front sight. I was just wondering what method most 3 gunners use? Point shooting with a bead or aimed shooting with rifle/ ghostring sights?

TIA

Andy

[Clay1]

Stick man, welcome to the boards. I have a passion for blades and guns by the way - like your board name.

Wingshooting or shooting clays all of the pros use a hard focus on the target. If you focus goes from target to front sight you loose your focus on the target and it is hard to hit something when you don't know where it is.

Most 3 gun events have many static targets or are shooting slugs. For these kind of targets traditional rifle sight orientation works well.

Rick

[wsimpso1]

I have a rifle front sight and ghost ring rear, so you know how I handle a tactical shotgun. I rarely miss our steels and stationary clays. Now if someone put up some flying clays, I wonder what would happen...

Billski

[Larry White]

Just MHO but ring and rifle sights are in the way for about 90% of 3 gun shotgunning. On plates, popppers and static clays if you are slowing down to really aim you are behind the curve, its just swing and shoot, but with slugs and the big buck shot you really need to be down on the rib and bead. The trick is to be able to switch back and forth quickly. If I ever get it figured out I will be greatly impoved like Kurt M.------Larry( that is if I could load a lot faster and keep the right shells in the gun at the right time).

Edited October 13, 2005 by lkytx

[ArnisAndyz]

Sounds like its a combination of both depending on the COF. If this is so...would it be better to use a bead for transitional speed, and slow down on the longer range targets or use rifle sights and concentrate on the front sight (similar to handgun)?

Thanks for the welcom Clay...not everyone knows what "Arnis" means! I find that most people into the Filipino Martial Arts usually have a natural transition into firearms. I have a small school here in Florida, I've already encouraged 4 of my students to get thier Concealed Weapons License and particpate in some of the shooting sports to get trigger time. In Florida the license applies to everything (not just firearm). I have a pretty nice collection of Filipino and Indonesian blades, I'll post a picture sometime.

[kurtm]

Lkytx:

I endevor to perservier! KURT

[Larry White]

kurtm, you are doing well at it too.-----Larry

[Clay1]

So Kurt, what's your thoughts on the original question? AA, Kurt is the real expert here, I like have more of a sporting clay background personally that a tactical shotgun background. That's where the board name Clay comes from. Real name is Rick by the way.

Dan Inosanto is my hero by the way. Silat, kali and most of the fillipino martial arts that revolve around stick and blade are cool. Just had a discussion with a shooting friend tonight at work. He made some comment like don't bring a knife to a gun fight when I told him that FBI stats talk about the average man covering 7 yards and cutting an opponent within 1.5 seconds. The truth is that the average CCW holder doesn't deploy this quickly on command from true concealment not from a 5.11 vest at the local IDPA match.

These days I shoot mostly USPSA and love gun games. Again welcome to the boards. Would love to see some of the blades just not sure where that should be posted on the board. Maybe someone could make a recomendation.

[ArnisAndyz]

He made some comment like don't bring a knife to a gun fight when I told him that FBI stats talk about the average man covering 7 yards and cutting an opponent within 1.5 seconds. 

Yes, I've heard this before during gunshop talk. I usually reply to them that it might not be a good idea to bring a gun to a knife fight. Meaning that at typical ranges when a knife is deployed (way under 7 yards - more like 7 feet), by the time the person IDs the threat and aquires the gun, the skilled knife fighter will already have his cuts. I have demonstrated this many times to people using airsoft guns and training (marking) knives, and it has been an eye opening experience for them. The problem with many "gun" people is thier reliance on the weapon itself. From the context of FMA, the gun is simply considered a "largo mano" weapon that fits into a system of self defense. Sometimes a knife is better, sometimes a gun is better, but you should know how to use both and when to use it. I carry my firearm strongside left (I'm left handed), I carry my knife strongside right (I'm better with a knife in my right hand). I don't consider one primary and the other secondary as either one can be both depending on the situation.

Guro Dan! I just saw him in Jacksonville, FL about 4 months ago. I'm sure your familiar with "Surviving Edged Weapons" that featured Guro Dan and GM Gaje?

Sorry for the thread drift!

[Genghis]

I help train 4-H instructors in Pistol and Rifle. I have the NRA and 4-H Shotgun credentials, but I don't generally instruct in that discipline because I have the book learning and definitely don't have the physical skills.

The 4-H shotgun instructors are some of the best anywhere. At the annual statewide match I understand the kids have to hit at least 99 of 100 to make it out of the prelims. Every Shotgun instructor with whom I've spoken says you point, not aim. They also generally recommend swinging the gun through the target, never stopping. But that's shooting moving targets at fairly close ranges.

I haven't shot 3-gun (yet!), but it's nothing but USPSA with different tools. So it seems to follow that you should use techniques more like those used with a pistol against stationary targets, rather than those used against moving, aerial targets. Or adjust your technique depending on the range and type of target, as Brian explains in his book. Otherwise you're using the wrong technique and increasing your chance of missing.

Just my $.02, and it's probably overpriced at that.

Edited October 14, 2005 by Genghis

[ArnisAndyz]

Point shoot moving targets, aimed fire for stationary? What if the shooter is moving and the target is stationary? There are so many different possiblities, that I'm starting to think along the lines of lkytx that the answer would be both (depending on the situation) and the better shooters (not me) know when to do what. But is aimed fire with a bead harder than point shooting with rifle sights? Which do you prefer?

On one shotgun stage I saw the shotgunner hit a steel popper that activated a lever and flung a clay into the air. On this example, I can see an application of aimed fire combined with point shooting.

[kurtm]

I like to see the front sight for every shot, in this case the hi-vis bead. It is all I concentrat on. Maybe too many years shooting rifles. I really feel that "ghost ring" sights are slow for 3-gunning. Not because of aiming, but because the sight blocks too much of your perifrial vision slowing the swing down. I know guys that just wave the shotgun in the genewral direction, and i have seen some spectacular misses, but then again some spectacular speed also, so I guess what ever works for you. I like to hit stuff the first time, so I will stay with the old slow front sight focus. KURT

[Clay1]

"I have demonstrated this many times to people using airsoft guns and training (marking) knives, and it has been an eye opening experience for them. The problem with many "gun" people is thier reliance on the weapon itself. From the context of FMA, the gun is simply considered a "largo mano" weapon that fits into a system of self defense. Sometimes a knife is better, sometimes a gun is better, but you should know how to use both and when to use it. "

Couldn't have said it any better.

Also love to listen to Kelly Worden on his internet radio show. For anyone interested here's a link: http://www.kellyworden.com/index.html

Have a grand time with the 3 gun games.

[TLD]

I like to see the front sight for every shot, in this case the hi-vis bead. It is all I concentrat on. Maybe too many years shooting rifles. I really feel that "ghost ring" sights are slow for 3-gunning. Not because of aiming, but because the sight blocks too much of your perifrial vision slowing the swing down. I know guys that just wave the shotgun in the genewral direction, and i have seen some spectacular misses, but then again some spectacular speed also, so I guess what ever works for you. I like to hit stuff the first time, so I will stay with the old slow front sight focus. KURT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I shot my first 3 gun this weekend. I converted my 1100 to 3 gun duty with a 19" barrel with vent rib and bead. Having shot lots of sporting clays this year I figured I would do fine just to point and shoot. It worked great for the off-hand steel, but at longer range with the slugs from a kneeling or prone, it wasn't as precise. I hit all the targets and scored well, but the mount is much different from other-than-off-hand and my confidence was lower.

I'm thinking about a midrib bead to help align the front and back. I still think that pointing must be faster than aiming with rifle sights. I just have to practice "aiming" with a bead or two.

By the way, I really loved that match. Now I need something other than a national match A2 AR. Tooooo heavy and sights are toooooo small.

[Clay1]

I've seen some of the turkey sights that mount to a rib that might do well in 3 gun competition. Just a thought.

[mike.45]

I favour a mid rib bead, its simple, stays out the way and allows a degree of confidence with slug shots if you dont have a rear sight fitted. I do have access to an M1 with a flip up 10/22 sight blended into the rib but have not had real time to try this out yet - plus its owner may object to me playing with his Europe gun !

Edited October 18, 2005 by mike.45