Extractor Star

[RogerT]

Hi all.

What part is more critical to the cylinder timing, the end of the star's leg against the recess wall in the cylinder or the flat portion of the star rod in the cylinder?

I'm wondering since reading the other tread and looking at Randy's pic of how he chamfers cylinders, I realized that I didn't pay that much attention to how the ends of the legs fit against the cylinder when I did my chamfering job.

And since the hand pushes the star to rotate the cylinder, if the star is to loose in the cylinder there will be some slack to take up before the star movement starts to rotate the cylinder.

So I'm wondering, since my 625's timing is somewhat late on one charge hole, could it be that the end of the star leg don't have enough support against the cylinder or is it beacuse the star rod has to much play in the cylinder?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Timing is controlled by the relationship of the ratchets on the extractor to the hand.

Hands come in various thicknesses. The thicker the hand, the earlier the lockup to a point where the hand is too thick. Measure with a micrometer to gauge the thickness.

First step I take with a timing problem is to make sure the barrel of the yoke and the bearing surfaces are clean. Many times, cleaning the yoke barrel and the inside of where it rides on the cylinder can solve a problem.

Randy can probably comment better on this.

Regards,

EDITED FOR TYPING ERRORS if there are more, deal

Edited September 26, 2005 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[pskys2]

RogerT, I've noticed the same thing on my year old PC 625. I agree with your thinking that if your Ratchet is worn enough at the star ends it can affect the timing. Of course the limit will be the barrel of the Ratchet itself.

On my 625 I haven't messed with the chamfer at all. Yet the Ratchetis loosening up pretty badly. I also notice that when SLOOOWLY stroking the trigger about half of the cylinders actually won't lock up.

When firing though it isn't giving any trouble. Course the faster I shoot the less problem. As long as I don't try to finese the final let off of the trigger it isn't causing an accuracy problem.

But, I may try to fit a new Ratchet just for the fun of it. Another option is an oversized hand being fit and "Filing" the Hand Window in the frame. Which is pretty scary for an average guy to think of. But, the top flight Revo Smiths do it.

I also would like to hear Randy's views. Guys, we need to keep him in business just for the free advice he keeps giving out!

Another question for Randy, have you noticed a difference between the requirements/requests of IPSC, ICORE and BULLSEYE/BIANCHI/PPC shooters.

IPSC shoots a wide variety of styles, but mostly fast with heavy loads.

ICORE shoots light loads at ?Fast? speeds, or do you slow down to get good hits?

BULLSEYE/PPC/BIANCHI would be light loads at very methodical (slow) speeds.

I shoot only IPSC and I try to go Balls to the Walls, unless forced to slow down by demented course designers that think a 20 yard head shot is fun. Like I wouldn't willingly shoot innoccents!! wait I shouldn't say that, besides I'm one of the few that keep setting up 50 yard courses. It's kinda funny watching Open Guys sweat cause they don'[t know where they hit past 25 yards, or find out too late.

Ha, Ha.

[R112mercer]

Pskys2:

I shoot all three disciplines you mentioned, here's my thoughts on equipment:

USPSA/IPSC: Most of your shooting will be high speed/close range work. The 625 with a 5" tube rules the roost here. It easily makes Major, has a nice sight radius, is easy to reload, offers more than acceptable accuracy, and holds the required number of rounds. This is important, because in USPSA/IPSC the penalty for shooting more than six rounds in Revolver Division without reloading is SEVERE.

ICORE: ICORE is scored as time plus, meaning your raw time plus additional time for misses/bad hits. ICORE is far more accuracy intensive than USPSA/IPSC, because of the scoring and the target (NRA D-1, the A zone isn't quite as large as the A zone on a metric target). In ICORE all stages are six shot neutral and the power floor is 120. Either you make the power floor or you don't. Seven or Eight shot guns can shoot as many as they can hold. For this reason ICORE is dominated by Eight Shot wheelguns in Open and Limited. The extra round(s) allows a little cushion for bad hits or to game a stage a little.

PPC: Accuracy is King in PPC. The target is the NRA B-27, which has a 2" x 3" X ring. You fire a fixed course of fire with fixed (slow) time at ranges from 7 yards to 50 yards using different (mandatory) shooting positions and hand holds. PPC is similar to Bullseye in that there is a maximum attainable score, whoever gets the closest wins (there is a classification system, however). The rules on guns varies depending on what event you shoot. The 1500, the main event, allows 6" guns with weights, bull barrels, rib-type adjustable sights and the like. There is no power factor, the only requirement being that your bullet must pass fully through the target and backer to score (I'm not kidding, and some guys loads have a tough time doing that). There are other events for Service-type guns and Semi-Automatics.

[pskys2]

R112mercer, thanks.

Back in the '80's I shot NMSS, civilian version of PPC, Bianchi Cup and for many years pre-IPSC clubs shot the Points-Time scoring system. Which put a grand premium on Points. Even shot a little with a M28, but mostly it was stock 1911 in .45 acp.

My questions to Randy was meant to querie more on the lock up expectations, and longevity, in relation to the various disciplines.

I notice a lot of guys who shoot IPSC with a Revolver talk of their pistols being out of time (not locking when slowly cocked, before hammer fall). I was curious as to Randy's experience with this.

In my case when shooting at speed it isn't a problem. But, then you'll run into a course where you need a 20 yard Head Shot (may not be PC but that's what it WAS called). Or maybe a long 8" plate. Then you will have to slow down which is still not a problem, as long as the timing isn't too off, as long as you don't stop the squeeze.

Note to RogerT, you inspired me to go home and actually work on installing a new extractor in my 625. It is quite a procedure, but came out good just needs a little light polishing to smooth it up a bit. It does now lock up great, but the new extractor had to have 2 of the legs beveled and the lengths adjusted a tweak so it wouldn't hang up on closing.

Haven't shot it yet, probably will tomorrow night (tonites NCIS) since I have a range out back I can sneek out pretty easy.

My questions still remain, and what of longevity?

I've only played with a few Wheelguns, someone like Randy sees hundreds.

Dave

[RogerT]

Hi Dave.

I'm curious, what aspect of replacing the star needs the most attention? Was it just adjustment of the star legs or do you have to fine tune the star centre where the hand engages the star as well?

Or did you change the hand also?

How much play is there with a new star compared to the one you replaced, and is the new star loose in the cylinder rod opening?

Edited September 27, 2005 by RogerT

[pskys2]

Very deifintely the ratchets.

Each had to be filed down slightly. Actually used a 1911 Slide File, has a safe area underneath it so I didn't hurt the ratchet boss/pin hole.

Relieved the base (where hand rides over).

2 of the stars would hang up after ejection. They would always pop back in on closing, but thought they might bend. Actually shortened very little, did more beveling underneath.

Had an old 94 Hand that I slipped in. If I made an error could always go up as the window will take one thats 98.

The part was only $25, or so, from Brownells. It's not something to do if you're not used to working on small parts (and have a lot of patience). But I've built a few 1911's and the screw up factor with a new part seemed small.

Remember the 25 and 625 (at least the newer ones) time on the Extractor differently. It is said to be a MAJOR Pain to do a 25.

Probably the best would be to adjust the legs of the star, the flat on the extractor barrel will only allow so much turning. Then fit the ratchets to the thinnest hand that will work.

Note I AM NOT A GUNSMITH. I've butchered more than a few items in my time. I just enjoy working on my toys, well actually it's that I just can't stop myself.

[Randy Lee]

Hi guys,

I haven't forgotten about this thread. I'll post my thoughts on this later tonight.

Current extractor stars match a square pattern cut in the cylinder so that makes it easier to get and fit replacement parts. There is often considerable back and forth play in the star as you have noted. Because of this, it is best to check the timing with a moonclip or all charge holes filled with empty cases as they will usually control the timing by limiting the movement of the star.

More to follow...

[RogerT]

I checked the timing with a training clip in the cylinder, and it improved, but there is one charge hole that sometimes is late locking up, it happens at the same time as the hammer falls.

I think it's strange that it does'nt happen every time, and sometime it's the opposite side chage hole that's late in the timing. Does this mean I don't really have any timing problem, but the fault is with the locking bolt?

[Randy Lee]

I've found that the amount of sideplay in the trigger can cause this. Brownells sells the shims #713-050-002. Also have the cyl. yoke checked for alignment. If the centerline of the yoke is misaligned, it can also cause the timing to be out on one or two chambers.

[Randy Lee]

Roger,

If after checking the yoke alignment, , posible bending of the ejector rod, hand fit and trigger side to side play, one chamber still does not lock up, the engagement surface of the individual ratchet can be adjusted to correct the timing.

The stars are soft, so the harder and faster we push the action, the faster the timing goes out. This is particularly noticeable on 627 8 shooters because the ratchets are anemic to begin with. This was on of the reasons I havw been trying to push the Performance Center to start offering the Ti cylinders as a option on their guns for ICORE/IPSC competition guns. It will extend the live of our guns dramatically.

As far as fitting the star, the older versions of our beloved spin guns used a broached tab like a keyway and matching slot on the star body to limit star play. it also used 2 locating pins. Excess play on these older guns(say a new star was improperly fitted) would often shear off one of the locating pins. In the case of the new stars seen on todays guns, the flat on the shank of the extractor star should take most of the load in turning the cylinder-at least in an ideal world. Usually this is not the case. If the star is grossly undersized, on a 625 six shot for example, ONLY TWO legs of the star will take the force load. This is why I have seen several IPSC and ICORE revos with broken ejector stars. Smith won't change their design because we represent only a small percentage of the consumer base. The failure rate on our guns doesn't represent a significant percentage to warrant a design change.

Over chamfering of the star are will exacerbate the problem and increase the chances of failure.

Dave,

Typically the PPC guns will hold up longer as far as timing goes. As far as I know, all the PPC revos I've built over the last 20 years or so are still timed. The triggers aren't typically pulled at a fast pace- splits of 1.0 second or so.

ICORE and IPSC shooters push the action of the gun. IPSC is the harshest because we're trying for .20 splits or better with 200+ grain bullets. That's a lot of inertia to overcome on such tiny engagement surfaces. Heavy bullets in a heavy cylinder places greater stress and therefore wear on the individual ratchets. Essentially, we are pushing the mechanism beyond it's intended design parameters. In both of these games, shooting fast is part of the emphasis.

It is unfortunate that Smith doesn't pay more attention to the IPSC/ICORE shooting sports insofar as product improvement is concerned. They could make a product that is so much better than what they offer today.

[Carmoney]

Randy, I think you've recommended hard-chroming cylinders to slow down the peening problem that affects a percentage of these guns....would a full hard-chrome job also help keep the ejector star, frame window, and hand at their proper dimensions?

[Randy Lee]

Thanks Mike,

I forgot to add that. Make sure whoever is doing the HC that they post bake to prevent embrittlement.

[pskys2]

Kind of what I thought.

So, if I get this straight on fitting an Extractor.

1) Fit the Star ends so all 6 (or as many as possoble) kiss the cylinder cuts when the flat of the shank is bottomed ccw onto the cylinder bore.

2) Fit the Ratchets to set the final timing lock up of each individual chamber.

What happens when a star breaks, does it usually snap off or just crack. Heck, I have a 1911 with BOTH sides of the Dust Cover cracked about 1/2" or more, and the darn thing keeps plugging away.

Dave

[Randy Lee]

Dave,

I tend to do the final fit on each of the ratchets with a moonclip filled with fired cases in place. The swelling of the brass during firing can cause binding which wouldn't normally show up during the fitting process with an empty cylinder.

The leg usually snaps off. I have one in the shop somewhere... I'll see if I can find it and post a pic.