Reloading Technique

[Clay1]

I didn't take that one too personally - he made himself very clear with the big "wink". No problems on my end.

Yesterday I shot a match at a club that recently went from IDPA to USPSA. It was their first USPSA match. It was a grand time and personally, I like USPSA better (higher round counts and shot 'em as you see 'em stages).

The truth is I am probably looking for the gun to solve a lacking of solid technique when the gun has to go to slide lock in IDPA. Much prefer it not going to slide lock in USPSA as well.

Rick

[Flexmoney]

I don't know of any way to make it drop 100% with the Glock. I don't plan on it at all, then it is a happy bonus when it does happen.

[Heath]

Vision allows us to adjust. We can all drive/walk/reload blindfolded, but seeing allows us to make those subtle compensations for the small and often cumulative errors we make as we proceed with the task, or for the extra variables brought in by every situation that varies from our practice ideal. (sorry, did that come across as pompous?)

For me, at least, seeing is more sure, and I can see better with the gun up high.

Another factor is economy of motion. The goal of reloading is to allow you to continue to shoot, as soon as possible. If you bring the gun down from the shooting position, you have to bring it back up to shoot again. The lower you go, the high you have to go to get back.

Kevin, you aren't pompous at all. In fact, you're quite the opposite. I generally chafe a bit when people give advice as though it's the final word on a subject. I find that it's much more palatable coming from someone that qualifies it by saying something like, "This is what works for me..." You're also a damned nice guy and I appreciate all the help you've given me at the range.

Economy of motion is obviously essential to a fast reload, which was basically the source of my question. My rationale was that I didn't see the greater economy in leaving the gun up high versus bringing it down and meeting the magazine with it. What I failed to account for is the inertia of the gun. If the gun had no mass, then I suspect that it might be faster to meet the magazine with it. In reality, that's not the case.

Just so you aren't beating your head against a wall for anything that I posted...

For me, the key is to see what I need to to make the reload.  Seems like I get the best vision with the gun high.  But, I am not fighting an type on injury in that area. 

If you have an injury that is truely limiting you, then you will have to adjust as best you can.  But..then...work to fix the injury, and get back on whatever will prove to work best for you.

There's no head-beating here. I've just started this game and I'm simply trying to develop the component skills necessary to be competitive. I got to the point where I needed to develop a training regimen for reloading and I wanted to make sure that I was doing it right.

I'm not really dealing with an injury so much as just experiencing simple muscle soreness that caused a certain movement to be slightly uncomfortable, which in turn caused me to subconsciously avoid it. This just highlights the fact that I'm not stretching enough after rock climbing which can be quite taxing on certain muscle groups. A beneficial aspect to climbing is that I've developed good hand strength which aids in recoil control.

When I first started practicing reloads, I did it with empty magazines. I was able to float the magazine home pretty quickly. When I tried this in live-fire I discovered that I wasn't using enough force to seat the magazine, which caused me to have to smack it a second time. Doing this probably cost me another second on the reload. The best way that I know to overcome that is to practice with magazines full of dummy rounds.

So far, any time I've shot to slide-lock during a stage the release has been triggered when I slammed the fresh magazine in. Granted, I've only done this a few times, but I consider it to be a bonus in USPSA. If I've shot to slide-lock, I've already lost a great deal of time, if slamming the mag in doesn't release the slide then it would only take just a little longer to flip the release and reacquire my grip.

[Jayman]

One comment on seating mags with some force.  On my Glock 34 if I seat the mag on a mag change with some force the slide drops automatically.  I wish that I could get it to do it 100% of the time but at this point it is probably close to 75% successful.

Anyone know how to make this a 100% occurance?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Clay, if you're right handed, when you go to seat the mag, put your thumb lightly on top of the slide release. The action of the mag seating home will knock your thumb down slightly, and voila, automagic slide drop.

The only thing you have to watch out for is that you don't get ahead of yourself and drop the slide on an empty chamber because you triggered the release prematurely. (Ask me how I know. Great thing to do at a State Match. NOT.)

[Clay1]

Jayman, the reason that I want the slide to shut without having to hit the slide release is that I can't manipulate the slide release without changing my grip. I shoot a G34 with the extended release and still have this issue.

I have experimented with manipulating the slide release with my weak hand, using the sling shot method and using my strong hand. None of the options I do 100% of the time. I just need to get a method and stick with it so that 1) it works all of the time for me and 2) it needs to be as fast as possible while being safe. (look at threads on hand over the ejection port and rounds going off while ejecting cases).

[sixx]

with a browning high power, 1.8 reloads are freaking fast, with no mag well funnedl. The top end of the mag is very "square" and so is the mag well.. The slightest rotation of the mag or the gun will result in one or more of the corners" catching" If you want 1.2 second reloads, it will require a 1911 and a mag well funnel. If you want them even faster, I hear that the double stack 1911's are faster than single stacks, but I have no idea why that would be so, and I sure aint buying one to find out.

[cautery]

Just brainstorming here Clay1, but I have the same problem that you do apparently... small hands and/or short strong thumb. To hit even an extended slide release requires me to slightly adjust grip, which in this case a slight adjustment might as well be a mile long one... a change is a change...

Ever given any thought to an even longer slide release? A long enough release would negate the grip change, and better leverage should reduce effort to release (albeit end travel increases).

As soon as my G35 arrives, I'll take a look at possibilities... Just a thought.

[Clay1]

Cautery, I shoot production/SSP and a non stock part will make my equipment illegal so that option is out. Still haven't settled on a good way to release the slide after a slide lock. Just seat the mag HARD and hope it drops. If it doesn't the first time, it still is easier for me to just bang the hell out of the mag a second time and hope that it drops and if it does the hand is going over the port and racking the slide. I shoot a 9mm Glock without an extended ejector and factory ammo and have decided to take my chances at this point. If I ever shoot a 40 with an extended ejector and handloaded ammo I will have to reconsider.

Rick

[Jayman]

Cautery, I shoot production/SSP and a non stock part will make my equipment illegal so that option is out.  Still haven't settled on a good way to release the slide after a slide lock.  Just seat the mag HARD and hope it drops.  If it doesn't the first time, it still is easier for me to just bang the hell out of the mag a second time and hope that it drops and if it does the hand is going over the port and racking the slide.  I shoot a 9mm Glock without an extended ejector and factory ammo and have decided to take my chances at this point.  If I ever shoot a 40 with an extended ejector and handloaded ammo I will have to reconsider.

Rick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well Rick, I wish I had better advice for you, I'm actually shooting lefty, I use my trigger finger for the slide release.

I have found, however, that my gun pops into battery pretty easily just from seating the mag with authority. This has gotten more and more the case as the gun has broken in. Perhaps you will see the same thing....

[Clay1]

Over 5000 rounds through the G34 and the slide does drop easier now than before at the insertion of the mag. The last few range sessions and some dry fire practice at dropping the slide have revealed something about dropping the slide with my thumb of my strong hand.

I always assumed that my hands were too short to hit the extended button on the G34. What I actually found out was that I have to take my strong hand thumb which is fully extended and pull it to the rear some by bending the thumb that the knuckle. This allowed me a different angle on the slide release and now I can activate it with much more consistancy in the case that the slide does not drop at the mag insertion.

Focus on any aspect of your shooting and it is amazing what can be discovered under the strong light of scrutiny.

Rick

[Flexmoney]

Focus on any aspect of your shooting and it is amazing what can be discovered under the strong light of scrutiny.

Rick

Very nice.

When we can get away from judging our actions...that will allow us to just observe and be aware of what is going on. Then, we can picture the desired result. From there, the body usually can sort out the details...if we let it.

[Clay1]

Yesterday went to the range around 5pm. Did dry fire practice on actual targets at actual ranges for about an hour before I fired any rounds. Started by shooting upper A zone shots. Anyhow I left after 8 pm last night.

When I shoot, I continually see what Brian Enos was writting about in his book. Even if those things didn't at first make sense. The more I shoot the more his writtings make a connection for me.

This board has been a wonderful sounding board for me to reflect on my own progress. Working at getting better.

Rick

[GRD]

The more I shoot the more his writtings make a connection for me.

Amen on that one.

Re: dropping the slide: Even though I can hit the slide release with my strong hand thumb (1911), and used to do that, I've taken to using my weak hand thumb lately and find I like it better. It's got a very natural feeling when you get used to it, it's right there as you bring your weak hand back onto the gun and assume your grip. As the weak hand is sliding into place my thumb moves right over the slide release and I just snick it down with the thumb on its way out to it's normal position (pointing at the target). A little hesitation while that happens and it's back to work.

Seems to work well for now...a week from now I'm sure I'll change to something else.

- Gabe

[boo radley]

Focus on any aspect of your shooting and it is amazing what can be discovered under the strong light of scrutiny.

Rick

Very nice.

When we can get away from judging our actions...that will allow us to just observe and be aware of what is going on. Then, we can picture the desired result. From there, the body usually can sort out the details...if we let it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What does that mean, exactly? I'm not trying to be contentious, but it seems as though you're suggesting the opposite behavior. IOW, from reading the previous post, Rick *did* scrutinize (judge?) his actions, and then forced his body to behave differently....

Here's the larger point I'm wrestling with, probably because I *am* new to practical pistol shooting, and am still woking on the fundamentals: a lot of times, if I let my body "work something out on it's own" that's often a path of least resistance, and possibly *bad*.

For example, if you give hand an absolute beginner a golf club, or a guitar or a violin, the way her or she handles it probably is not going to be 'proper,' and will be limiting -- possibly severely -- for future development. The body has sorted out what feels natural, but what feels natural isn't necessarily a good thing.

Right now, I'm wrestling with moving to a grip in which my thumb rides the safety of a 1911....When I first started shooting seriously a couple months ago (I've always dabbled, but not in competition, and with gaps of years between shooting), I did not ride the safety; instead my thumb naturally rested under it. It was a natural-feeling, neutral grip that my body found on its own, but a tiny bit wiser, I now realize the virtues of riding the safety, and it's twice the work, at least, to relearn.

I guess what I'm saying is it's very very difficult for me to filter out what's a *good* natural physiological reaction/action, and what's one's body taking the "easy way out," so to speak.

I think you, yourself, stressed the importance of keeping the reloads UP. Well, I know right now it feels more natural to drop the gun hand while bringing the other hand up, but I also see the absolute sense in keeping the pistol high, so it can get back on target ASAP. That's an example of what I'm talking about -- it's tricky, IMO.

[XRe]

What does that mean, exactly? I'm not trying to be contentious, but it seems as though you're suggesting the opposite behavior.  IOW, from reading the previous post, Rick *did* scrutinize (judge?) his actions, and then forced his body to behave differently....

I'll take a hack at it, Boo The word "judge" implies a subjective attention to what's going on. What Flex and Rick are talking about is an *objective* viewing - totally taking it in for what it is. The subjective mindset tends to jump to conclusions and make assumptions about what's going on, while the objective mindset simply learns. I know that's esoteric - sorry When he started objectively observing his reload technique, Rick learned that what he'd previously (subjectively) assumed about his thumbs being too short was not true - in fact, he *could* reach the mag release if he altered his technique slightly. There's a difference *upstairs* when you seek to determine what's wrong (subjective, judgemental) vs. observing what is (objective).

The body has sorted out what feels natural, but what feels natural isn't necessarily a good thing.

Definitely can be true - especially as a beginner, the best techniques are not yet comfortable for you, and you don't yet internally know what the subjective terms "better" or "best" mean or how they feel.

It was a natural-feeling, neutral grip that my body found on its own, but a tiny bit wiser, I now realize the virtues of riding the safety, and it's twice the work, at least, to relearn. 

Here's an opportunity for you, though Work very slowly, focusing on feeling how the thumb slides over the safety. Do some visualization work - w/o a gun or anything, just sit with your eyes closed, and imagine your grip with your thumb on top of the safety - imagine how it feels in as much detail as you can muster. Imagine drawing to that grip, etc. Then work it with a gun in dry fire - very slowly and smoothly for a number of repetitions. Do this every day for a week, and see where you're at. This sort of focus on a particular change has a way of programming your body to do it for you - your will to make the change, and your dedication to "experiencing" it through visualization and slow, focused repetition, will allow you to overcome that change in very short order.

I guess what I'm saying is it's very very difficult for me to filter out what's a *good* natural physiological reaction/action, and what's one's body taking the "easy way out," so to speak.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My experience with learning completely new things is that I cannot approach them with a "familiar" mindset. That is - I have to recognize that what I think I know, and my body thinks it knows, is likely not the best bet. I have to focus on learning the basic skills as they are generally practiced - ie, the "popular" techniques - first, so that I can get some solid basics. Then I'm in a position to objectively evaluate how that works, and experiment to see if I can find ways that work more efficiently - which, in our case means allows me to shoot more points more quickly.

This does, on the surface, seem to waste time in tuning technique later, but it seems to cost me less time than developing what I *think* are good fundamentals, only to find later that I have to completely relearn things, instead of just tweaking or changing in a minor fashion.

Helps to find a mentor or objective observer who is more advanced, too, for me...

I don't know if that helps, or not, or what

[Clay1]

Dave thanks for the input. I typed a nice message about as long as yours and then a window opened up at the top of my screen and said that I had a private message. It asked if I wanted to view it in the window to click here, kind of thing. I hit it and read the message and responded but lost my entire response somewhere. Computers what to do with them?

Dave touched on my understanding of what Brian was talking about in his book. The book's title is Beyond fundamentals and when he talks about seeing and observing I take it that is after you have many of the basics down.

One quote that I love in the book is by Bruce Lee who wrote something to the effect that "conscious thought is the biggest hinderance to physical action". Have you ever driven to work and wondered how you got there? I have experienced the same thing with reloads just recently. I no longer have to think that I must grab the mag with my week hand index finger like so and then bend the strong arm elbow and cant the gun like so - it just happens while I try to remain open to the inputs from the shooting. I still have a long way to go but working on what is there and being open to it can lead you to answers that aren't predetermined by your conscious thought. Seeing, observing and being aware while shooting can have your body react to things in a way that just accomplishes the task without much thought but rather action.

I don't pretend to speak for Brian or what he meant when he wrote it, but that is the take that I have on what I read. Good luck to both of us on our journey to learn to shoot targets faster, more accurately and with power.

Rick

[XRe]

Dave touched on my understanding of what Brian was talking about in his book.  The book's title is Beyond fundamentals and when he talks about seeing and observing I take it that is after you have many of the basics down.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I definitely experienced it this way - I didn't "hook up" on a lot of the observation and seeing things until I had a better understanding of the fundamental stuff. It also took me getting past trying to see and observe "what Brian saw" - and just see and observe what *Dave* saw

[Flexmoney]

Focus on any aspect of your shooting and it is amazing what can be discovered under the strong light of scrutiny.

Rick

Very nice. 

When we can get away from judging our actions...that will allow us to just observe and be aware of what is going on.  Then, we can picture the desired result.  From there, the body usually can sort out the details...if we let it.

What does that mean, exactly? I'm not trying to be contentious, but it seems as though you're suggesting the opposite behavior.  IOW, from reading the previous post, Rick *did* scrutinize (judge?) his actions, and then forced his body to behave differently....

Well, I should have clarified that some when I posted. I was afraid the word "scrutinize" might throw a monkey-wrench into the works.

I was replying more toward the "focus and discovery" part of his post. I don't believe he meant scrutinize to mean judge...but, meant it more to mean observe.

Here's the larger point I'm wrestling with, probably because I *am* new to practical pistol shooting, and am still woking on the fundamentals: a lot of times, if I let my body "work something out on it's own" that's often a path of least resistance, and possibly *bad*.

Yeah...that can be a time waster.

What is missing here is a clear mental picture of the "proper technique". I say "proper technique" in a somewhat dogmatic fashion. But, I only do so because the person new to the task needs to have a guiding vision of what the outcome is supposed to look like.

You mentioned a good example...when I told Clay to "get his damn gun up and reload high". That is a very dogmatic thing for me to say. But, Clay wasn't wrapping his mind around that being a better technique. He needed a kick in the pants to reassure him of what he needed to see.

That doesn't mean any given techinique is an end-all be-all deal. But, one can draw on the experiences of those that have been down the path, and use their wisdom/methods as a guide.

For example, if you give hand an absolute beginner a golf club, or a guitar or a violin, the way her or she handles it probably is not going to be 'proper,' and will be limiting -- possibly severely -- for future development. The body has sorted out what feels natural, but what feels natural isn't necessarily a good thing.

Right. Yet, give a child that same tool and let them be surrounded by the best in the business. The child will "naturally" pick up the proper technique (of the moment)...because, they have no other picture in their mind.

Right now, I'm wrestling with moving to a grip in which my thumb rides the safety of a 1911....When I first started shooting seriously a couple months ago (I've always dabbled, but not in competition, and with gaps of years between shooting), I did not ride the safety; instead my thumb naturally rested under it. It was a natural-feeling, neutral grip that my body found on its own, but a tiny bit wiser, I now realize the virtues of riding the safety, and it's twice the work, at least, to relearn.  

Part of the extra work is your mind still holding onto the picture of the other technique.

I guess what I'm saying is it's very very difficult for me to filter out what's a *good* natural physiological reaction/action, and what's one's body taking the "easy way out," so to speak.

The foundation that needs to be put down before you get to that debate is to first find a mental picture of the desired outcome.

I think you, yourself, stressed the importance of keeping the reloads UP. Well, I know right now it feels more natural to drop the gun hand while bringing the other hand up, but I also see the absolute sense in keeping the pistol high, so it can get back on target ASAP. That's an example of what I'm talking about -- it's tricky, IMO.

Well...like I said, I was being a bit dogmatic there.

Instead of saying, "this is right and that is wrong"...I should have simply defined the goal more clearly. Which, I think, is a smooth and repeatable reload while saving motion and minimizing the time with the eyes off the target. For me, the technique of keeping the gun up and seeing the mag into the well seems to facilitate that.

[Flexmoney]

What does that mean, exactly?

Or, I could have just said...

Tell your mind to shut the heck up, and pay attention to what is really going on.

See if what is happening matches your mental picture.