Need help on mental anticipation problem while pulling the trigger

[bountyhunter]

I'd bet that everyone "tries" subconsciously to compensate for recoil at least a little, which is the primary reason I didn't like the snap cap drill you posted.

I can't think of a single shooter I know including myself that wouldn't have their muzzle dip if they were expecting the gun to go off but it didn't.

I tend to agree. when I first started shooting and would get an unexpected FTF (gun run dry, dead primer etc) the muzzle would move down after the trigger press and the peanut gallery would all go "oooh big flinch". now at that point it may have been,

What I've now noticed is even M and GM level shooters when they unexpectedly pull the trigger on an empty chamber there is fairly significant movement of the gun. It's either their response to recoil that didn't come, or they are expecting the shot to have left, they have observed sight picture/dot was good at the time they pulled the trigger and are already starting to transition to the next target. The thing is as you said the difference between a pre-trigger jerk and a post trigger 'reaction' is probably measured in hundredths of a second and impossible to judge with the naked eye.

it's a tough one.

That's because a calibrated "after fire reaction" moves the muzzle back down faster than just letting it flip without resistance. The only times it's a problem is if it happens BEFORE firing.

[bountyhunter]

From JJ Razaca's instruction video below, i found out that I have some mental anticipation issue which can't keep my sight alignment very stable before pulling the trigger. is there any dry/live fire exercises that I can do to fix this? any advises will be appreciated.

Dry firing helps (at least for me) because it lays down hard wire pathways in the brain so that under stress, you will be following them. You need to develop a "reset" mode for your brain you can hit while firing to stabilize it if you are forcing or rushing the shots.

On some of my guns I put some padding on the backstrap to reduce kick and that helps a little.

Edited March 30, 2016 by bountyhunter

[johnbu]

I dry fired a crapton over the past 4 months. During a steel practice match, I used bad ammo. Was told when hitting the duds the barrel didn't move. So, a full crapton of dry fire must help, because last year, the gun would have dipped....a lot.

[wimms]

When I was taught by instructor, he said that I should not stop aiming all the way throughout the shot, up until the sights are back, as if the shot hasn't happened yet, and the reason for that was to suppress early recoil compensation. Another one was that the shot must come as a surprise to you, or rather, you shouldn't try to be in control of exact instant when the shot breaks.

These both are ways to avoid the muzzle flinch.

The 10s I've shot at 25m were all executed both as aiming throughout the shot process and the bang happened before I expected.

I've been mulling on this teaching and found that it has to do with the way our brain and neural paths are wired.
It's not possible for our brain to react in time for recoil control, so it does the next best thing - it tries to anticipate the recoil exactly after it sends a command to the trigger finger. So it tries to immediately send the signal to wrist muscles to start compensating for recoil.

The problem is that brain does not have good enough time resolution at that level of short durations, and it is aggravated by the fact that our brain is multitasking, as is our neural network. So what happens for a beginner is that signals to trigger finger and to wrist muscles are launched at about the same time, and sometimes in wrong order. Now if we wrongly assumed that next thou movement of trigger finger would break the hammer and it takes actually alittle bit more time, then wrist muscles would begin recoil compensation before the shot is fired.

Another thing is that neural signals are pretty slow, in the range of 5-120m/sec, and trigger finger has separate neural pathways from wrist muscles. So the command from brain to fire and compensate actually take 15-100ms to reach the wrists, and it is not even certain whether ordering of these commands is maintained while in transit - path to trigger finger is separate and tiny bit longer, so perhaps takes more time.

With practice, brain learns to do the timing right, but it takes enourmous amount of live ammo. Dry fire does not help it here.

Another solution is to disable the recoil compensation altogether. That becomes possible after you learn to have a firm grip that allows the muzzle to come back without any active effort on your part. At that point you start to feel that you are doing your part of the job and the gun is doing its part, and that you need not interfere with what the gun is doing. So it recoils, and you let it do it all it wants. During that time you focus on the only thing that matters - aiming. You do not think about when the bang happens or should happen - thats not your task, its the task of the gun. Your only task is to track the sights through all the shot process. Eventually its not that the bang happens as a surprise to you, it's more like you do not care when it exactly happens.

Edited June 1, 2016 by wimms

[Jake Di Vita]

So basically you're saying that when the gun recoils I have to react to that before I compensate for recoil? I don't think that is accurate at all, especially in my shooting. I know what the recoil impulse feels like, I also know when it is going to happen. It sounds like you're talking about shooting bullseye or some other equivalent, when I pull the trigger in USPSA 99% of the time I'm slapping the shit out of it, I don't have time to gradually increase pressure to get a perfect break on any but the most difficult targets. What you're saying makes a little sense if you are consciously (the conscious mind is shit at multitasking) thinking your way through whatever stage or drill you're doing. If you're just letting your subconscious (which is amazing at multitasking) do the work, I don't believe it ends up working the way you've explained it. I'd like to see you shoot a 2 sec bill drill or 4 sec el prez using the method you've described.

[wimms]

Jake, strangely you've heard something else than what I said.

I described the problem that plagues beginners - hitting low and flinching low when there is a dud. I tried to explain where this comes from, not that this is a good way to deal with recoil.

You are not precompensating for recoil, you are maintaining/correcting your stance and holding steady. I bet you will record no flinch if your string of shots were interrupted by an empty chamber. If not then I bet your hits are all over the place.

The solution I propose is exactly to stop trying to anticipate the recoil and deal with it differently.

[Jake Di Vita]

If I am shooting quickly and I hit an empty chamber or a dud I will absolutely dip the gun. I also shot about 94% of the points for the entire year (20ish matches) last year. I disagree with your conclusion in this matter.

[wimms]

Jake, I don't quite see where your disagreement is. I have not claimed that one cannot shoot well while anticipating recoil. With enough practice certainly can. It seems that you have mastered your gun and body and do well with anticipating the recoil. But it is also quite clear that you are not just reacting to recoil after it happens, your subconsious is anticipating it and reacting to it whether recoil happens or not. You have enough experience that you can time it right for your needs. But for many people timing it right, consistently, is hard.

There are many ways to shoot well. Many shooters try hard to get rid of this natural body reaction, they have a drill for that. To what purpose?

Actually, this body reaction is not really related to recoil at all. It happens subconciously and is deeply ingrained in us. It is just natural reaction to perceived recurrent "incoming". You can test it easily with a partner. Take unloaded gun, take your stance and aim at the target. Let your friend stand besides your gun and with smooth wide swing bring his open hand to your barrel and hit it slightly so that you feel some weak resemblance of recoil. Let him do that random number of times and then once - he will stop his hand just before touching the barrel and remove his hand from your sight. You will dip just like with the dud. Thats natural. To get rid of this takes work, and it tends to come back over time. And you don't even need a gun or stance to test it, could also stand straight and be pushed on your forehead rythmically until faking it - same overreaction occurs.

Some people learn to live with it, some people learn to suppress it, whatever makes you good. There is always more than one way to shoot well.

I just tried to explain where this natural reaction comes from and how it may affect accuracy. I certainly am still affected by this. I don't know if I am right or wrong in my understanding, but I cannot see my error yet.

[Jake Di Vita]

I have not claimed that one cannot shoot well while anticipating recoil.

It seems like that's exactly what you think:

I bet you will record no flinch if your string of shots were interrupted by an empty chamber. If not then I bet your hits are all over the place.

You keep insinuating that best performance comes from not compensating for recoil. I believe that is an error for the type of shooting the majority of us do here.

Even with a perfect grip and stance, there is always going to be some amount of force that is required to get the sights back on target from recoil, especially when you are shooting at a high rate of speed. That force is what compensating for recoil is. You can't act like anyone that "flinches" when they drop the hammer on an empty chamber or dud is going to have their hits all over the place. That idea is simply not true. Compensation for recoil is the natural action derived from the desire to get the gun back on target at the earliest instant possible. If your main argument against it is that beginners can screw it up, well, ya....beginners screw a lot of things up. That doesn't mean they should avoid working on it. Beginners need to work on it until it consistently happens after the bullet has exited the barrel.

I find this kind of advice similar to when someone says "I always pull my weak hand shots like 8 inches right of where I'm aiming, so I'm going to aim 8 inches left to hit where I want". No one in their right mind would ever suggest to someone to do that because it is not addressing the cause of the problem. If you are shooting a buckshot pattern with your pistol, your goal shouldn't be to stop compensating for recoil.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[benos]

Good stuff:

I never had to focus specifically on that, it came naturally through a desire to get the gun back on target at the earliest moment possible.

Our body will best sort out the best way to do many things, if, we tell ourself what the goal is, rather than telling ourself how we want to get there.

[Dr Mitch]

Don't focus on the shot. Focus on the hit.

[wimms]

Jake,

ok, I can see you POV now. You seem partial to how one learns to manage recoil, coming from how you yourself mastered it.

Please note that in my initial posting I said:

With practice, brain learns to do the timing right, but it takes enourmous amount of live ammo. Dry fire does not help it here.

Another solution is to disable the recoil compensation altogether.

I did not rule out your approach. My conjecture that your spread may be high if you actively try to precompensate recoil was given in the context of bill drill. In my mind there are simply too many variables to put rounds consistently into small group while trying to compensate for anticipated recoil. Of course I may be wrong but I never tried to generalize this to absolutes. With sufficient training and consistent ammo, this can be done. Perhaps I have also projected my own deficiency onto you, I apologize.

You can't act like anyone that "flinches" when they drop the hammer on an empty chamber or dud is going to have their hits all over the place. That idea is simply not true.

Perhaps you are right. I have yet to master this. But I would like you to understand that I am not coming in here to preach something radically new, I am merely saying what have been said by much better shooters to beginners, in my own words of understanding.

Perhaps the flinch will never disappear being such a natural body reaction and stemming from our inertia. What must disappear is a flinch before the shot is made.

As I see it, there is a difference between trying to pre-compensate the recoil and managing recoil. Of course I am not meaning that you do not manage recoil at all, I only mean that you can learn it with different approach. You can start learning in two ways: start slow with recoil handling after the shot and then increase the speed until you are just right, or start as fast as you can and then practice until you are not too early anymore and the spread disappears. I just merely point at the slow option that depends more on a grip technique and suppressing the initial urge to compensate for recoil. In the end you'd get to the same place, being fast and timing just right. I just believe that the slow approach will take less time, frustration and ammo.

See Jerry Miculek talk to see example of what my thinking is inspired by: