Merlin Orr Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 I think the marketing folks gaffed big with the GSR and some of the strange listings were an attempt to cover it up. Sig had ads in the IDPA tac Journal (that I think mentioned CDP) for a gun that wasn't legal for CDP. They had a published weight of 39.2oz which is below the limit of 41. When you ad the mag, however, it goes to 41.6oz, too heavy. Hmmm. Didn't someone win a big major shooting this gun in CDP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joer Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Bill Wilson should just add a lottery before each match - close your eyes and guess a number between 35 and 40 - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Maybe someone can market "lightened mags" for the super, tricked out SSP pistol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 I have one simple question... What the heck does the weight of the gun have to do with is it concealable? Size I can see, it is still very subjective due to the simple fact that we are not all the same size or build. Why not make the rule if you show up at a match you have to conceal your gun, if it isn't concealed you can't shoot it. I guess that would make it too much like real SD carry and not a game though.. Oh crap I think they have that backwards again. I mean this is real life not a game or .. Oh I give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 ROTFLMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 I have one simple question... What the heck does the weight of the gun have to do with is it concealable?---Chriss Grube I'm not really up on this rule, but I think that the weight rule was used to remove a couple of the high end guns from SSP. You wouldn't want a guy shooting an expensive gun in IDPA, would you? Does anyone know what guns this was aimed at? Did it remove any mid/low end gun also? Respectfully, jdkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Bill Wilson should just add a lottery before each match - close your eyes and guess a number between 35 and 40 - The logic behind that comment escapes me. Seems to me he's made thing pretty darn clear, no guessing required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Hmmm. Didn't someone win a big major shooting this gun in CDP? Are you thinking of Ernie Langdon's win? That was the SIG P220ST, not the GSR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 I have one simple question... What the heck does the weight of the gun have to do with is it concealable?---Chriss Grube I'm not really up on this rule, but I think that the weight rule was used to remove a couple of the high end guns from SSP. You wouldn't want a guy shooting an expensive gun in IDPA, would you? Does anyone know what guns this was aimed at? Did it remove any mid/low end gun also? Respectfully, jdkelly This wieght thing removes some of the gamier guns from a division (SSP) that was meant to be pretty pure. The idea is that it doesn't make sense to have guns that would typically be used for duty and self defense carry to be competing against guns that are designed more for competition. The weight issue seems to be a proxy - a way to identify- the gamers and move them to ESP, the closest thing IDPA has to an "open" division. I agree with the philosophy. He picked an S&W and made the judgement call that it was the heaviest gun he could find that seemed to be a reasonable carry/duty piece (I have seen those smith models strapped to cops). The heavy guns still get to play, they just have to do it in ESP, what's the fuss? Don't like ESP because there are gamier guns there and you feel like you can't compete? As far as Bill contradicting himself, well, it kinda looks like it, but as said before, it will be a tale of the scale. It is sure, however, that this is another sloppy communication from HQ/Bill. They don't seem to be able to do their homework before they open their yaps (as evidenced by the typos and other problems seen in the 1st gen of the new book). If Bill knows that a 5906 with a mag actually weighs a certian amount (he or the staff weighed it), and that weight is different than the published data, then he needs to say that. If he doesn't know the weight, then stay away from using it as a benchmark. I'm more disturbed by the sloppiness than with a judgement call that I might agree/disagree with. This is basic fact checking/proofreading that goes on all the time in the "real world". Bill clearly feels that he was personally attacked, but I think he opens himself up to it when he puts out sloppy work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 The logic behind that comment escapes me. ---Duane Thomas I think he was just ridiculing the weight rule and the difficulties of determining whether your gun is legal or not. I thought it was funny. Respectfully, jkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Hmmm. Didn't someone win a big major shooting this gun in CDP? Are you thinking of Ernie Langdon's win? That was the SIG P220ST, not the GSR. It is too heavy also (39.2oz w/o mag or about 41.5 - 42 with a mag), unless you remove a little meat from the frame and or grips, which I understand Ernie did. And it is perfectly legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 This wieght thing removes some of the gamier guns from a division (SSP) that was meant to be pretty pure. The idea is that it doesn't make sense to have guns that would typically be used for duty and self defense carry to be competing against guns that are designed more for competition. The weight issue seems to be a proxy - a way to identify- the gamers and move them to ESP, the closest thing IDPA has to an "open" division.The heavy guns still get to play, they just have to do it in ESP, what's the fuss? Don't like ESP because there are gamier guns there and you feel like you can't compete? So this includes my Para LDA....."gamier guns?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Gun Geek, Thanks for your response. I can't say I agree with you or Mr. Wilson on the rule, but it's his game and he can make the rules as he sees fit. But I'd still like to know what guns he was aiming at with this rule and what other guns might have been caught up in the change. I think creating rules that seem to conflict with the stated Purpose and Principles and then defending the rules by referencing that which they conflict with, is a bit 1984ish. I think Mr. Wilson would have a better time of it, if he removed the Purpose and Principles from the rulebook and just said that the rules, are the rules, "Because I say so." I mean that, it is not a dig at IDPA or Mr. Wilson. In this case, the rule change appears to conflict with Principle III "...such that guns with similar characteristics are grouped together...". As for shooting against heavier guns, I don't care myself. If you can afford some heavier or high end gun to shoot in my division, more power to you. It's sort of like shooting against a $2,500 Wilson Combat with my $660 S&W1911 in CDP. Of course the avantage would be mine as I'd be able to have three back up guns in my bag for the same price. I don't shoot SSP, but I was wondering if you did? Oh, nice come back with the weight of Mr. Langdons hand gun. Respectfully, jkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Mr. Orr, What other guns, along with your Para LDA, have been moved to ESP by the rule change? For what it's worth a local area PD carry the Para LDA as duty guns. Respectfully, jkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Mr Kelly. I don't know squat. Just called Mr Wilson and gave him my CC # on Monday. Said I would get my IDPA membership package in about two weeks. I have shot one IDPA match - had a hell of a good time with the guys in Ferris TX so I thought I would just join up. My problem seems to be the same as a lot of people I have seen post here in that the gun I used before is no longer legal - so I understand? I don't think I have any legal equipment now - but I still want to play. I am trying to figure out what gun, holster and mag holders to buy now that I can use in Production in USPSA and SSP in IDPA. (Don't say Glock). I thought - no I did have the answer but now it appears my dual purpose LDA is a "Gamer Gun." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Gun Geek,Thanks for your response. I can't say I agree with you or Mr. Wilson on the rule, but it's his game and he can make the rules as he sees fit. But I'd still like to know what guns he was aiming at with this rule and what other guns might have been caught up in the change. I think creating rules that seem to conflict with the stated Purpose and Principles and then defending the rules by referencing that which they conflict with, is a bit 1984ish. I think Mr. Wilson would have a better time of it, if he removed the Purpose and Principles from the rulebook and just said that the rules, are the rules, "Because I say so." I mean that, it is not a dig at IDPA or Mr. Wilson. In this case, the rule change appears to conflict with Principle III "...such that guns with similar characteristics are grouped together...". As for shooting against heavier guns, I don't care myself. If you can afford some heavier or high end gun to shoot in my division, more power to you. It's sort of like shooting against a $2,500 Wilson Combat with my $660 S&W1911 in CDP. Of course the avantage would be mine as I'd be able to have three back up guns in my bag for the same price. I don't shoot SSP, but I was wondering if you did? Oh, nice come back with the weight of Mr. Langdons hand gun. Respectfully, jkelly I have been shooting CDP for the last 2 years. I am moving to SSP this year (see my post about my philosophical move from carrying a 1911 to carrying a glock) I will shoot 17, and maybe a 36. I think it is Bill's (and his advisors, whoever that is) opinion that the weight of the gun is such a significant characteristic so as to make the grouping on weight as opposed to action type, etc. Having shot a few heavy 9's myself, they have a decided advantage in recoil and shot recovery. Since IDPA doesn't recognize minor scoring, the best gamer is a heavy 1911 9 shooting in SSP. You have the lightest recoil and the sweet 1911 trigger going against lighter slower trigger designs. With 2 shooters of equal skills, the guy driving the 1911 will usually beat the guy driving the polymer something. Especially with a 10 rd limit. Para's come pretty close to this - they have a very nice DA trigger. I'm sure this is what he wanted to stop. From my reading of the interview, Bill pretty much spells this out. I may get motivated tomorrow and find the quotes, but it seemed pretty clear. You may not care about shooting against heavy guns, but if they create a decided advantage (and Bill thinks they have), there will be a stampede toward those guns (i.e. equipment race) by the people who want to win. Stopping the stampede is VERY much in keeping with a key principle. If you are a competitive sort, and your shooting buddy starts beating you because a new gun, you'll buy one, too. If you aren't competitve, then what the heck do you care what division you're in. Let the gamers play in ESP. You're confusing high priced with high weight. Since there is a weight limit in CDP, and many guns are pretty close to it, you can't gain an advantage that way. $$ don't buy you an advantage by just buying weight. I hope this exchange is useful. When we get to religion I'll shut up, but most of the moves make perfect sense to me. The only one I don't get is the mag puch thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 ... unless you remove a little meat from the frame and or grips, which I understand Ernie did. And it is perfectly legal. SSP also? How bout a short guide rod or no guide rod. If it makes weight (LDA) is it legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COF Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 If you use a short guide rod in your LDA and it makes weight, more power to you. Personally, I think these new rules are creating more equipment races than they are stopping Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Since IDPA doesn't recognize minor scoring, the best gamer is a heavy 1911 9 shooting in SSP. You have the lightest recoil and the sweet 1911 trigger going against lighter slower trigger designs. Can't shoot a single action 1911 in SSP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 It is too heavy also (39.2oz w/o mag or about 41.5 - 42 with a mag), unless you remove a little meat from the frame and or grips, which I understand Ernie did. And it is perfectly legal. Actually - and this comes from interviewing Ernie for an article that was published in Velocity magazine from Sigarms - the way he made weight in CDP was by dumping those ungodly heavy rubber with steel insert grips that came stock on the piece and replacing them with a set of wooden grips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 According to the new IDPA rules, the SSP division has a maximum weight of 39 ounces including the magazine. There is a discrepancy in an interview with Bill Wilson. He stated that the S&W 5906 was legal, but the S&W catalog shows that gun weighs 38.3 oz empty. If this is true then the stated weight in SSP should be WITHOUT a magazine. Would that also mean that all the division weights should be gun only?From the new IDPA Rulebook: Stock Service Pistol Division (SSP) Handguns permitted for use in this division must: D. Have a maximum unloaded weight of 39oz., including an empty magazine. (Will be effective January 25, 2006) Bill Wilson interview in the IDPA Tactical Journal, Volume 9, Issue 1: “We drew the line at the Smith & Wesson Model 5906. It’s an all steel 9mm, and it’s about the heaviest gun people are likely to carry concealed” Smith & Wesson catalog: 5906TSW Caliber: 9mm Material: Stainless Steel Weight Empty: 38.3 ounces Email from S&W Customer Service: Q. Does "weight empty" mean with or without a magazine inserted in the 5906TSW? A. No magazine Q. What is the weight of a magazine for the 5906TSW? A. It’s in the area of 3oz. How does Bill Wilson contradict himself when the original post shows a weight for a HEAVIER GUN than the 5906 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Does anyone have a standard 5906 and a 5906TSW they can throw on a postal scale, so we can know the real weights of these two guns? Absent that, we're just kind of shooting in the dark here (pun intended). If the 5906TSW exceeds the weight limit, BTW, I'd bet it's the added light rail taking it over the limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 (edited) Duane , fwiw , I have an email request to S&W about their published weight for the 5906. I'll post their reply when I hear back from them. A start anyway.... http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg01-e.htm 5906 weight =1072 grams = 37.814 oz. http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/grams-to-ounces.htm MP Edited March 12, 2005 by Mark Perez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Since IDPA doesn't recognize minor scoring, the best gamer is a heavy 1911 9 shooting in SSP. You have the lightest recoil and the sweet 1911 trigger going against lighter slower trigger designs. Can't shoot a single action 1911 in SSP. Didn't say you could. I said this would be the gamiest combo going and the Paras may be coming close to this "ideal" and HQ was concerned so they stopped it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 According to the new IDPA rules, the SSP division has a maximum weight of 39 ounces including the magazine. There is a discrepancy in an interview with Bill Wilson. He stated that the S&W 5906 was legal, but the S&W catalog shows that gun weighs 38.3 oz empty. If this is true then the stated weight in SSP should be WITHOUT a magazine. Would that also mean that all the division weights should be gun only?From the new IDPA Rulebook: Stock Service Pistol Division (SSP) Handguns permitted for use in this division must: D. Have a maximum unloaded weight of 39oz., including an empty magazine. (Will be effective January 25, 2006) Bill Wilson interview in the IDPA Tactical Journal, Volume 9, Issue 1: “We drew the line at the Smith & Wesson Model 5906. It’s an all steel 9mm, and it’s about the heaviest gun people are likely to carry concealed” Smith & Wesson catalog: 5906TSW Caliber: 9mm Material: Stainless Steel Weight Empty: 38.3 ounces Email from S&W Customer Service: Q. Does "weight empty" mean with or without a magazine inserted in the 5906TSW? A. No magazine Q. What is the weight of a magazine for the 5906TSW? A. It’s in the area of 3oz. How does Bill Wilson contradict himself when the original post shows a weight for a HEAVIER GUN than the 5906 ? Published weight w/o mag 38.3 Mag estimate 3.0 Total 41.3 Limit per rules 39.0 Conclusion 5906 is over wight limit when a mag is included. Bill Wilson interview in the IDPA Tactical Journal, Volume 9, Issue 1: “We drew the line at the Smith & Wesson Model 5906. It’s an all steel 9mm, and it’s about the heaviest gun people are likely to carry concealed” This statement implies that the limit was set to include the 5906. But per the above math, the 5906 is too heavy. This is the contradiction. Even at 37.8 grams (+3 for a mag) weight is 40.8, which is still too heavy. As stated above, the only way this will be resolved is a scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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