No Firing Pin Safety

[jkushner1]

I know there exists a lot of posts on this topic. Is the spirit of Hamer Down DA to begin a Production stage to reflect how a gun is carried real world. My CZ 85 Combat has no firing pin safety and therefore the normal hammer down carry configuration is the safety notch NOT all the way down which creates a more dangerous situation. A good bump to the hamer could cause a discharge. Whereas fist notch, is recomended by the manufacturer. I vote that the hamer down position be determined by the gun not the rule

Thanks,

Jon

[Detlef]

You are probably alluding to App. D4 17 of the IPSC rules. But in App D9 19 of the USPSA version your prayers have been heard already: "Handgun may not be in SA mode at start signal". So you may start as you desire in the US.

S&W DAs have a related "problem" in that engaging the (hammer block) safety lifts the hammer off its "fully decocked" position just a tad. I don't believe this would violate App. D4 17 of the IPSC rules, but the wording of App D9 19 of the USPSA version is a bit clearer.

--Detlef

[Vlad]

Huh .. no .. You have to start hammer down but you can cock it as you draw. What that does to the half cock I don't know. I wonder if that wording allows for a half cock start.

However on the bright side, I belive that the CZ firing pin is shorter then the channel in which it resides which means that it would have to be an HUGE blow to the hammer to push it out the firing pin hole. I think if you just push the pin from the back of the slide to be flush, the front does not come out of the firing pin hole. I'll have to check that on my 75B and you should check it on your 85.

Vlad

[Skywalker]

Jon,

you didn't specify if you're asking for USPSA or IPSC rulebook.

For IPSC:

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

So you have to decock the hammer to fully down position (no half cock notch rest allowed for a starting position). Whether you do it manually, or via a decocking lever, it's up to you, but the hammer must be completely at rest to start a COF (unless specified differently by the written stage briefing).

Upon issuing of the start signal, you have to fire the first shot (or first attempt of it, e.g. a dud primer) double-action. You're not allowed to cock the hammer for the first shot:

17. Single-action-only handguns are prohibited. First shot must be double action. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to making the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed if the first double action shot attempted fails to discharge due to a malfunction, or in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.

[Detlef]

I believe Jon is in the US. He can start in half-cock (see my first post), the rules do not mandate or even mention *hammer down*. He can also thumb-cock his hammer before firing the 1st shot.

In IPSC, Sky quoted the rule and you have to start (and fire a shot, no thumb-cocking!) hammer down.

This is really all there is to say about it.

--D.

[Skywalker]

S&W DAs have a related "problem" in that engaging the (hammer block) safety lifts the hammer off its "fully decocked" position just a tad.

Detlef,

I happen to have a SW 6904 DA 9mm, first series (the one with the squared triggerguard).

When you apply the safety/decocker, the hammer is lifted a bit from its rest position, but it is not a half cock notch, it's simply the tube connecting the two safety levers that (upon rotating) contacts the hammer with its shrouded convex side.

It's the very same principle as the Beretta slide-mounted safety/decocker.

If you release the safety/decocker, the hammer is brought again to its full rest position, it's no longer lifted, thus I guess it won't impact the starting condition anyway (unless you have to start with the safety applied).

[Detlef]

I am aware of that (I own a few S&Ws myself....). An anal RO could fault you own violating PD rules if you start with the safety on, though I don't know one who would i) ever know and/or ii) really call you on that.

[jkushner1]

I am waiting for some feedback here from Vince Pinto regarding USPSA not IPSC.

1. Confirming that cocking via thumb is acceptable.

2. and the lowering to the safety notch not all the way down resting on the firing pin is within the rules. Vlad, Deltlef - no disrespect, its just always nice to ghet confirmation from and authority.

Thanks,

Jon

[Detlef]

Jon,

1. this will be a long wait for Vince.

2. Vince is IPSC official, not USPSA.

3. Read the rule book. It's all in there.

4. Mail John Amidon if you don't believe us.

I know, posting here is easier than searching the rule book, but more contentious issues than yours are usually discussed here.

--D.

[jkushner1]

Thanks Detlef - I have communicated with John Amidon in the past to attempt to get my HK Expert - a slightly overgrown USP with adjustable sights on the apprvd production list, not the long slide Elite or the Socom. No luck. The Expert is a basic production gun, too bad the ROI or Sedro Woolly didnt see it that way. My production guns are:

1. Para LDA 18.9

2. CZ 85 Combat

3. Formerly the HK Expert - the CZ will shoot circles around it/.

Okay, so the only operative works regarding beginning a stage in production for USPSA are: "Handgun may not be in SA mode at start signal". Thats it no other rulings, etc. This clearly or unclearly means that I can lower to the Safety notch and it means I can cock the hammer to SA if preferred.

No more, no less - "Handgun may not be in SA mode at start signal"

Thanks,

Jon

[Detlef]

yes. Btw., this wording is new in the new rules. Until 15th became active, you were not allowed to thumb cock under USPSA.

In my experience, John replies quickly. I had a few questions regarding my LDA, and he answered them all w/i 24 h...

[Vlad]

\Okay, so the only operative works regarding beginning a stage in production for USPSA are:  "Handgun may not be in SA mode at start signal". Thats it no other rulings, etc. This clearly or unclearly means that I can lower to the Safety notch and it means I can cock the hammer to SA if preferred.

No more, no less -  "Handgun may not be in SA mode at start signal"

Sorry Jon, but there is 8.1.2.3 Hangun Ready Positions/Self-loading Pistols/Selective Action which reads:

"Selective Action - Chamber loded with hammer fully down or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged."

However the rules for production exclude the second option. Which leaves you with "hammer FULLY down" hence no half cock.

I would also like to start my CZ that way but it is not to be. What I think is an issue that no one wants to touch is that a lot of guns can't even "fully" do what the rule asks. For example SIGs have the hammer fully down only when actually firing and a decocked SIG is most certainly not "fully" down. The Decocker version of the CZ also only drops the hammer to the safety notch as far as I understant and that fine for that gun. Yet I'm not holding my breath waiting for those guns to be taken of the list because they can not comply with the rules.

Vlad

[Nik Habicht]

\Okay, so the only operative works regarding beginning a stage in production for USPSA are:  "Handgun may not be in SA mode at start signal". Thats it no other rulings, etc. This clearly or unclearly means that I can lower to the Safety notch and it means I can cock the hammer to SA if preferred.

No more, no less -  "Handgun may not be in SA mode at start signal"

Sorry Jon, but there is 8.1.2.3 Hangun Ready Positions/Self-loading Pistols/Selective Action which reads:

"Selective Action - Chamber loded with hammer fully down or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged."

However the rules for production exclude the second option. Which leaves you with "hammer FULLY down" hence no half cock.

I would also like to start my CZ that way but it is not to be. What I think is an issue that no one wants to touch is that a lot of guns can't even "fully" do what the rule asks. For example SIGs have the hammer fully down only when actually firing and a decocked SIG is most certainly not "fully" down. The Decocker version of the CZ also only drops the hammer to the safety notch as far as I understant and that fine for that gun. Yet I'm not holding my breath waiting for those guns to be taken of the list because they can not comply with the rules.

Vlad

We could go crazy here --- or we could simply accept that fully down means as far down as the particular gun's design will allow......

[Jim Norman]

Nik,

You'll never get anywhere applying comon sense!

Why can't we all just accept that hammer down means hammer down, not 1/2 cock, it means that if your decocker lifts the hammer just slightly, then that is hammer down for that particular model of DApistol when decocked, in a 1911 it would mean hammer all the way down (this was covered in another TFH), not on the notch. For a Glock, it means nothing, the striker is where it is, unless you are starting with an empty chamber, then I would try to include in the WSB a line to the effect that all hamers or strilers must be in the "Fired" condition. For a Glock or similar, that would be slide racked and closed, trigger pulled, magazine then inserted.

Jim

Jim

[Detlef]

interesting twist, vlad...

although you ommitted some extra text:

8.1.2.3 "Selective Action - Chamber loded with hammer fully down or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D)."

I guess we are quickly reaching the top of the discussion flagpole here and need some interpretation of "fully down" from Amidon. Jon, do you want to ask him? There doesn't seem much point in arguing or discussing this w/o his input. The USPSA Production Division Appendix and 8.1.2.3 do not agree (possibly an unintentional omission?) on the starting condition.

And let's stick to the original very specific topic, please.

--D.

[Vlad]

We could go crazy here --- or we could simply accept that fully down means as far down as the particular gun's design will allow......

Oh I agree. I'm not out to outlaw SIG's I'm just pointing out a small flaw in the rules. And on topic, Jon does raise and interesting point. The CZ75 platform has a safety model and a decocker model. The decocker model drops the hammer to the 1/2 cock notch (as far as I've been told, I havent seen one). Jon could make an argument that the standard model should only be decocked as far as well. Honestly I don't think it makes that much of a difference.

Detlef, I omited that because it made no difference and I aknowledged the production requierments eliminate one of the options. Sorry if that confused anyone. Personally I see no disagreement between 8.1.2.3 and the Production rules. 8.1.2.3 adresses Selective Action guns used in ALL divisions not just production. I could use my CZ in DA for Production or in SA in L10 and the rule gives me the flexibility to start in SA in L10.

Vlad

[Detlef]

good input, vlad. As I said to Jon, it's all in the rule book, and I just had to read it

I think we still need some guidance as to how Amidon wants *fully down* interpreted. You really don't want to be bumped into another division at a major match for decocking you CZ and then starting...

[Shooter Grrl]

Locked for now - PM if y'all get an answer from Amidon that you want to add.