rtp Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) I've been loading Montana Gold 124gr JHPs for a while now, and as noted elsewhere ( Various plated vs coated vs jacketed projectiles vs... ), am looking at other options to see if I can drop the cost of what seems to be spiraling upward prices on MGs and others. I've loaded some Berry's, Ranier, and Hornady FMJs previously, but none of them are really cost-competitive or a significant savings vs cases of MGs, while some of the Hi-Tek combos, if they work out, could drop my cost per round by 3c or so each, so fingers are crossed, and I've picked up a number of projectiles to give a 'shot.' I'm not a bullseye shooter, but doing 2-3 matches per month nearly year round between pistol and 3 gun matches. Latest gun is a Walther PPQ, which seems to have a chamber much like the CZ75 in that it's on the shorter side vs my Glock, so I've needed to load the MG 124gr JHPs down to 1.065". I have a good number of Xtremes in the mix, as I picked some up on their Thanksgiving 15% sale, and a few more recently during a 10% off sale. I'm hoping to see something work out in the Hi-Tek coated on hand (SNS and BBI), as the savings there is pretty decent, but we'll see how it goes. I didn't have a chrono the last time I loaded some Xtremes, and have never loaded any of the coated bullets before, which combined with relatively minimal (manufacturer) WSF load data, and my MG 124gr JHPs seeing ~1130-1150FPS w/4.9gr@1.065" (start of published charge data but nearly max published velocity), so am set to pretty much run the gamut of charges. For most of these, I loaded up around 20rds. I could have done it in less, but I want to make sure I get a good 10each across the chrono, and then 10x for accuracy (likely offhand) testing against 1-2 targets with one specific target per bullet/charge, without waiting for a cold range every 5 minutes. Loads to be tested(all projectiles checked for max OAL in my gun; the below is generally 1/100th" below max physical OAL, except the Xtreme Plated RNs could run beyond SAAMI Max) 125gr SNS coated @ 1.085", 4.1gr-4.6gr WSF 124gr Xtreme plated RN @1.15", 4.2-5.0gr WSF 124gr Xtreme plated HP @1.085", 4.2-4.6gr WSF 125gr BBI coated RNFP (kind of a rounded off FP) @1.08, 4.2-4.6gr WSF I've also got some Xtreme 124gr FP and 135gr RNFPs coming, although I'm not sure they'll make it in time. Looking for the usual, accurate and PF > 125... I'm expecting all to cycle, although possibly not on the lower charges of the Xtremes. Any feedback or comments on the loads, including 'unlikely to cycle' is welcome. If not, I'll update when I get to chrono and test them next weekend. Edited March 30, 2014 by rtp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Waiting with eager anticipation for the results !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcracco Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 FWIW, with a MG 124GR and 4.8GR WSF in my M&P 4.25" I was on the hairy edge of making PF. Bumped it up to 5.0GR to be comfortable. I don't think you will make velocity below 4.5GR but it will be interesting to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) FWIW, with a MG 124GR and 4.8GR WSF in my M&P 4.25" I was on the hairy edge of making PF. Bumped it up to 5.0GR to be comfortable. I don't think you will make velocity below 4.5GR but it will be interesting to see. At what OAL? Running 124gr MG JHPs @ 1.065 (short chamber, as mentioned) at 4.9gr of WSF, I was getting over 1150FPS, so backed down on that load. The only one I'm expecting I may be way under in my loadings above is with the Xtreme RNs, but will see. I do wish I knew someone with a handful of Bayou 124gr and 135gr, but not thrilled about the prices of 'sample' packs + shipping at the moment.. Edited April 1, 2014 by rtp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Got a local competitor/reloader going to swap me some Bayous..no 124gr, but at least will be able to do some testing with the 135gr and 147gr Bayous..be interesting to me to see how long they can load, as well as how they feel and work on steel, as I've only loaded 115gr and 124gr in 9mm to date.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcracco Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I load long; 1.155" for the PD bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted April 7, 2014 Author Share Posted April 7, 2014 (edited) Lots of testing today. Favorite loads for the day were 125gr SNS, 4.4gr WSF, 1.085" OAL (PF 128), 4.6gr Xtreme 124gr RN 1.15" OAL (but didn't make PF), and 4.0gr WSF, Bayou 135gr coated, 1.085", 126.6 PF. Had some loads with very high spreads/ES, while others were decent. Comments on how to improve those are welcome...die in use for 9mm is a Lee. Some of them I was loading limited quantity as I could only get 20 or so, across several loadings, so I did what I could to fill most of the shell plate with 'dummies' but likely saw some variance due to wrapping up the end of a load set.. Tried to do a table, the editor showed it worked, then saving = big mess, so click on the image and it'll become readable.. :-/ Edited April 7, 2014 by rtp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n5qm Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 In regards to the Xtreme bullets, are you using the regular 124gr RN or the HPCB variants? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 In regards to the Xtreme bullets, are you using the regular 124gr RN or the HPCB variants? Robert Regular Plated RN/HP/FP, not the heavy plated. I'm unaware of any reason to use the heavy plated for anything other than Major (not positive it's needed/b] even then in 9mm?) Xtreme claims they're good to ~1500FPS or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n5qm Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Do you have any opinion in regards to the coated vs plated bullets? It seems that for the same weight you can use less powder and get a comparable speed, so I assume the recoil may feel different and/or less? I worked up 4 loads with BBI 135gr and IMR 7625 that I will be testing in the next few days. If you are interested in that data I will send it your way. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted April 10, 2014 Author Share Posted April 10, 2014 Do you have any opinion in regards to the coated vs plated bullets? It seems that for the same weight you can use less powder and get a comparable speed, so I assume the recoil may feel different and/or less? I worked up 4 loads with BBI 135gr and IMR 7625 that I will be testing in the next few days. If you are interested in that data I will send it your way. Robert Assuming the same OAL and same case volume (including how far the bullet seats/OAL + projectile length), you should get a lighter recoil...although in my case, it's not like I can also load all of them long. The above testing was mainly to sort where I needed to be charge-wise. I've got a few favorites in there so far - been shooting the MGs for a long time, but liked the SNS and some of the Xtreme loads, so going to load some more up for next session where they're all in the ~130PF range, and will do more direction comparisons on feel and accuracy then..maybe this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted April 10, 2014 Author Share Posted April 10, 2014 I worked up 4 loads with BBI 135gr and IMR 7625 that I will be testing in the next few days. If you are interested in that data I will send it your way. Sure- more chronod/tested data is always good, and as I couldn't find WSF anywhere in the past 12 months, I do actually have some SR7625.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n5qm Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Well, it looks like the 7625 loads will be very close to your WSF numbers. I will post the details later but 3.8gr under a 135gr BBI averaged just over 125.5pf in the PPQ. I expect I will need to go up to 3.9 or 4.0 for some safety margin. Quite a different feel as compared to the 115gr factory rounds I have been shooting. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Did some more load work today, across MG 124gr, Xtreme 124gr RN and HP, SNS 125gr coated RN, and Xtreme 135gr. I wanted to test a few 'bunny fart' loads while I was at it, as I shoot a number of no PF/outlaw type matches, but not so surprisingly, while all loads cycles, WSF just isn't a great choice there, a balance between soot vs softness of recoil. It was pretty warm today at 77* F. Favorite loads of the day 4.5gr WSF with MG 124gr JHP@1.065, PF of 127, and 4.4gr WSF w/SNS 125gr RN #1.085", PF 128. 5gr WSF w/Xtreme 124gr RN@1.15" was OK w/PF of 129+, going to play with OAL a bit (shorter) and see how things go. 4.4gr of WSF with an Xtreme 135gr RNFP@1.13" and PF 128 wasn't bad in feel and accuracy. Interestingly, or at least to me, I just don't have an Xtreme HP load that I'm happy with - by the time I hit PF and it's reasonably accurate, it's not terrible, but having to load them short (1.09") for my PPQ (or for whatever reason), they feel much snappier than the MGs and SNSes. Going to give these one more chance, but I think I'm probably not going to buy more of them in the future. I may give them a try with some CFE Pistol and see how that goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) Updated load data. Usual disclaimer applies - use at your own risk, works for me, may or may not work for you, I accept no responsibility for anything blown up. Having said that, most data is on the lighter side. Click on the image to get it in readable size.. Edited April 14, 2014 by rtp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8ring Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 My past results with WSF and Montana Gold FMJ, are similar to yours. My minor load for a a while was 5.3gr WSF under a 115gr Montana Gold FMJ lit by Winchester SP primers.. (Shot over 5,000 rounds of these loads.) It gave consistent velocities of between 1,140 to 1,150 in my CZ 85 Combat, with extreme spreads of 30 - 40 fps. I used 4.9 WSF under a 124gr Montana Gold FMJ and got around 1,070 fps with 30-40 fps extreme spreads. I used about .2 to .3gr less WSF under the plated bullets for the same averages although the extreme spreads were a bit larger. I found that my WSF 9mm loads for the most part mirrored the data in Hodgdon's Annual Manual. I can't explain the anamolous results with the plated and coated bullets. Perhaps the plating on Extreme Bullets is thicker these days than when I used them. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Thanks, Chris. If nothing else, maybe it will make someone's life easier with some more data to confirm against..perhaps especially for those loading for PPQs, CZs, or other shorter chambered guns with some of the bullets. I'm not sure what to make of the Xtremes - largest ES by far across number of loadings on their 124gr RNs. They look to be consistent, and shoot OK (vs the Xtreme HPs I just don't have a happy load with at the moment, really) - will check OAL on every one in the next batch. Even so, they don't shoot badly..but with that kind of ES, I'd need to load them to a PF of 140 or so to be on the safe side of making PF (at a guess, haven't done the math yet..but higher than I'd normally load match ammo to). I'm not sure which anomaly besides the ES on the plated you mean? If it's the charge vs PF, I'm loading them much longer than most of the other bullets, and they seem to load more like jacketed vs Berry's or Rainier (thin) plated.. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n5qm Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Here are the details of the BBI 135gr LCRN using IMR 7625... Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Here are the details of the BBI 135gr LCRN using IMR 7625... screenshot_14-04-2014 13.32.42.jpg Robert Thanks. 7625 data is sort of all over the place, but looks like you still need to up your charge a bit if needing to make PF. Your velocity sure isn't gaining much on increasing charges...have you found anyone else loading 135gr w/7625 to compare data? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n5qm Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I agree, the biggest jump was from 3.6 to 3.8. I loaded quite a few sunday @ 4.0 to test accuracy with and should be able to get out near the end of the week to test them and update the sheet, so we will see what that brings. There is a large thread on one of the CZ forums about 7625 that I am still working my way through as it seems to be a popular choice for those guys. I will see if I can find any 135gr data there as their chamber is similarly sized to the PPQ ones. I also have some Xtreme RN that we can do a direct comparison with between the 7625 and the WSF. I expect they should arrive in time for me to test them along with the BBI 4.0gr loads. The irony is that by the time I find something nice I will be out of 7625... haha Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n5qm Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I did a quick search in that thread and only found one test with 135gr bullets, Xtremes. My numbers seem to correlate, the exception being I am averaging about ~30fps more with the coated bullets, so the 4gr loads should get me right at 130pf. If that is the case I will have to go to 4.1 or above to get a little "room". Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted April 15, 2014 Author Share Posted April 15, 2014 I also have some Xtreme RN that we can do a direct comparison with between the 7625 and the WSF. I expect they should arrive in time for me to test them along with the BBI 4.0gr loads. The irony is that by the time I find something nice I will be out of 7625... haha I've got an 8# jug of 7625, but it will certainly be annoying if Hodgdon discontinues it as was announced...when I get around to doing some comparison loads with it, if I like it, means another item on the list to be on the lookout for, 'before it's gone' :-/ I did a quick search in that thread and only found one test with 135gr bullets, Xtremes. My numbers seem to correlate, the exception being I am averaging about ~30fps more with the coated bullets, so the 4gr loads should get me right at 130pf. If that is the case I will have to go to 4.1 or above to get a little "room". The coated bullets make sense being a bit faster than Xtremes, which have fairly thick plating...I don't think I realize how thick until my last chrono session with them. This may be what Chris was calling out as the 'anomaly,' but: 4.4gr WSF with 124gr Montana Gold JHP@1.065": 125PF 4.4gr WSF with 125gr SNS Coated RN@1.085: 128PF 4.4gr WSF with Lucky 13 125gr LRN@1.12": ~126PF 4.4gr WSF with 124gr Xtreme Plated HP@1.09" : 113 PF 4.4gr WSF with 124gr Xtreme Plated RN@1.15": 111PF The OAL differences don't help to sanitize it, but the Xtremes seem to run more or less w/jacketed data so far. As I can't get the Xtreme HPs to run all that well for me, I might load a few up at 4.4gr and matching OAL with the MGs just to see if velocity/PF increases that much with only .025" decrease in OAL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtp Posted April 15, 2014 Author Share Posted April 15, 2014 Just adding in for anyone stumbling across this thread later. Except the few cases noted (Bayou and Lucky13 bullets), all chrono results were from 10 shot strings, Pro Chrono w/sunscreens, chrono ~10' from muzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n5qm Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Have you noticed a difference between the plating on the Xtreme RN and HP? I saw it reference somewhere that the HP had a thicker playing than the RN... Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n5qm Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 PS - If you don't want to test with that 7625, I know a place that you can send it. All that I can find locally is Unique and Red Dot. I have high hopes for some of the upcoming gun shows. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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