Equipment check

[spook]

If it's not apparent after all these years, I just don't take kindly to people nit-picking the efforts of others who step up to the plate and put their hearts and souls into creating something of value, such as a huge and highly successful match like the EC2004. If there was a summary of the highlights of the match, with suggestions for improvements, that would be another thing entirely, but focusing solely on what one or two people thought is a shortcoming is nit-picking. And to suggest that 1 (or a handful) of 800 competitors managed to flaunt the rules despite 28 (29?) equipment checks because range officials didn't do their job properly, is incredibly harsh.

So I have to say something nice about the EC2004 before I can say something that wasn't right in my opinion? Come on Vince....

Maybe we could do something useful with the information about the equipment check and make the EC2007 even better. That's what I believe in here. If we can't criticize things like this anymore, than how do you expect improvement?

And after meeting Dalmas a couple of times, I doubt he's in for "a good beating of the people who 'messed up' the equipment check" He's one of the most laid back guys I know of in this game (or any game for that matter )

So...how can we improve on the equipment check ina any match? What are the key elements of a succesful equipment check?

And the thread goes on...

[RogerT]

Hi all.

To further enhance the equipment rules, I have the feeling that a couple of pic's with right and wrong position examples would do much to help.

I'm not saying they should be in the rule book (printing and copying may produce varying results quality wise) but on the IPSC home page, section Rule Interpretations.

Get one well known shooter (some top dog) to show correct examples and a "nobody" to show wrong examples and we will all do like the top dog .

I think that the pic in the rule book really could do with some help and anatomy lectures apart, the description is correct but leaves room for ind'uh'vidual interpretatoins .

[spook]

Pictures would definately help, especially for beginning shooters.

Also, I think the equipment check should have the unpredictable character of the chrono. If you know you're getting checked before every stage, you can easily cheat it. It would be more effective if the RO checked the shooter right after the run for instance.

[Flexmoney]

That's what I believe in here. If we can't criticize things like this anymore, than how do you expect improvement?

Exactly.

That is the environment that I hope we have here on Brian's Forum. One that allows discussion and feedback...sharing of information with the goal to improve.

[zorba]

Thread Drift.

Open guns have the option of having scopes, comps, longer mags and obviously not having to fit in the box.

Standard guns must fit in the box , no comps no optics and must factor higher..

This brings me to my question , why worry about where the blaster and mags sit, please dont missunderstand me i will and do comply , i just dont see the advantage or disadvantage of a few inches when there is so much more seperating the divisions already.

IMHO most shooters dont move anything when switching between open and std, mabey the mag TJ seems to keep the same holster position.

I am all for rules but we need to keep the book as thin as possible and for every new rule take away an old one.

[Dalmas]

The intention of this thread was to throw something into the air that I felt was not ok and with the wealth of knowledge in here get some ideas of what other had on the subject, that worked.

I came into this sport only 18 months ago and love it. Ï've found my call in life. With that comes feelings and they are sometimes not that easy to express especially in a 2nd or 3rd language. The choise of words was maybe not the best to comply with the intentions of the topic and they probably helped in it becoming an aggressive thread.

I fully appreciate the volunteer basis of our sport and take pride in thanking each and every RO I come across for giving up their time so I can do what I've become to enjoy so much. I also appreciate how hard it can to RO after earning my NROI shirt at the Nordic Championships this summer (don't remeber much due to a snake bite ) but we can all improve, and I'll do so by reading what I write before i press "Add Reply" next time to eliminate as many language barriers as possible.. (oh shit I'm part dyslectic so it might not work ).

Bottom line I stand by my opinion that the Equipment Checks sometimes is more an adminastrative formality than an acctual equipment check (see I've already improved ) and I'm also sure that more focus will be put on if from now on.

Edited December 14, 2004 by Dalmas

[Yoda]

Dalmas,

We know that there is no formal requirement for preliminary equipment check or equipment sheets. I think the mutual feeling is best summarized as follows:

If there is an official Equipment Check (either before the match or during the match) it should be done seriously and not be discarded as a paper formality.

Let's hope we see improvement in the future. And now ... let's move on to more exciting topics like "How do I explain the Bintang Girl in my luggage to my wife?"

[Dalmas]

Dalmas,

We know that there is no formal requirement for preliminary equipment check or equipment sheets. I think the mutual feeling is best summarized as follows:

If there is an official Equipment Check (either before the match or during the match) it should be done seriously and not be discarded as a paper formality.

Let's hope we see improvement in the future. And now ... let's move on to more exciting topics like "How do I explain the Bintang Girl in my luggage to my wife?"

I've heard so much about these Bintang Girls but where ARE all the pictures...

[Yoda]

I've heard so much about these Bintang Girls but where ARE all the pictures...

Dalmas,

that is classified information, VERY classified. Unless you know the password and the secret handshake we cannot show you. IF we show you the incriminating materials we have to kill you .... The choice is yours!

[Dalmas]

that is classified information, VERY classified. Unless you know the password and the secret handshake we cannot show you. IF we show you the incriminating materials we have to kill you .... The choice is yours!

Hmm I might remember you or I might not the next time I have the SBT on visit The choice is yours! ..

[Skywalker]

Unless you know the password and the secret handshake we cannot show you. IF we show you the incriminating materials we have to kill you

And I always thought that "for your eyes only" was a classification level movie deception...

[Dead Buff]

And behold how easily one can be distracted by a well trained person from the Q at hand...

Maybe we should get the SBT to pose for "How to..." pics and the Bintang Girls to do the checks....

[Dalmas]

Maybe we should get the SBT to pose for "How to..." pics and the Bintang Girls to do the checks....

[Vince Pinto]

This thread has confused two different things:

1. Equipment sheets are used to check that competitors haven't moved the position of their holster and ammo pouches from stage to stage (see Rule 5.2.5.3), and the likely suspects are those in Open Division and Revolver Standard Division. For example, a competitor using a "crotch rocket" (or a revolver guy with speedloaders in front of his belly), would probably like to move those items rearwards (or remove them entirely), before attempting a stage where it will be necessary to shoot from prone. This is obviously less of an issue (a non-issue?) for competitors in Standard, Modified or Production Divisions, where all their equipment is already placed "behind the hip bone".

However note that Rule 5.2.5.3 deals with the holster and ammo pouches, not what's in them. In other words, there's nothing stopping you from going to the line with an empty ammo pouch, provided the pouch remains in the same position throughout the match.

2. Compliance checks are used to verify that a competitor's equipment is in compliance with his declared division, and the primary focus are competitors shooting Standard and Modified Divisions (e.g. does the gun fit the box? etc.), and those shooting in Production Division (e.g. multiple restrictions), but of course we can also check that Open Division magazines do not exceed 170mm in length.

Although this thread opened with the claim that at least one competitor at the EC2004 had his first ammo pouch too far forward, dealing with that issue will not be resolved by using (1) above, because it's unlikely to be a case of the offending pouch being moved or removed. It's probably a case of non-compliance with the declared division (or possibly inadvertent shifting during the match), and the best check is the RO, on the line, enforcing (2) above, before the competitor is given the LAMR command.

Remember that even if there's a general compliance check conducted of all competitors before they can commence shooting, that check is merely a "snapshot" of the competitor's equipment at that point in time. It still falls upon the RO actually running the stage to verify, say, that a competitor in Production Division is not using an extended magazine, or that a competitor in Standard Division does not have porting in his barrel.

This is why I don't have too much faith in general checks - the real test is when you come to the line, because that's when it really matters.

[Yoda]

that is classified information, VERY classified. Unless you know the password and the secret handshake we cannot show you. IF we show you the incriminating materials we have to kill you .... The choice is yours!

Hmm I might remember you or I might not the next time I have the SBT on visit The choice is yours! ..

Maybe we can negotiate ....

[spook]

This is why I don't have too much faith in general checks - the real test is when you come to the line, because that's when it really matters.

Good point. Maybe it should be a standard procedure to check holster and pounch position etc. (the things you can easily see) on line every time. Like something you teach new RO's: "when the next shooter moves to the start position, take a look at his equipment" (BTW, this is not "prison lingo")

[Skywalker]

Maybe in this thread we confused and mixed two different things as Vince suggests, but I'd like to offer an Italian interpretation of the equipment check.

The normal procedure all local ROs (included yours truly) follow on lev.III matches and higher is the following: upon squad showing up on the stage, the hustler individually calls each competitor with declared division; the competitor will then show up to the RO fully geared (I mean with gun in holster); RO checks general compliance with Division Requirements, equipment compliance with what declared in equipment sheet, and firearm serial number compliance with the declared one on the equipment sheet.

This way, each and every RO checks both divisional requirements compliance AND competitor's equipment consistency throughout all the stages.

At the end of this procedure, the RO signs the competitor's equipment sheet, which is then collected upon finishing the last stage. Competitors who do not have all the ROs signatures are requested to show up to the RM with the equipment sheet, because depending on the RM decisions, they might be moved to open division, or (in exceptional cases) not see their results included in the final standings (there have been a very few times where a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct would have been appropriate... ).

BUT, when the stage walk-through is over, and it's shooting time, the hustler will again call each competitor to the deck with declared division, so that the RO, while imparting the standard range commands, can have a final look at equipment divisional requirements compliance.

[RogerT]

Hi Luca.

That sounds great, a system like that should at least be incorporaed at the first stage at all mathes, regardless of level.

I'm sure that this would be time consuming in the beginning before all shooters learn the drill, but then it should not take that long.

Checking the serial no. of the gun at every stage seems a bit of overkill, but I guess once you have started to check it, why stop?

[Skywalker]

Roger,

checking the firearm serial no. at each stage should be done as well as all other controls, and I'll explain you why.

Rule 5.1.7 mandates to use the same handgun for the whole match. If you wish to use a back-up one (because your primary has become unsafe or unserviceable) you shall seek RM approval.

The only way to check this is by inspecting the firearm serial no. at each stage.

And, in the past, we had a couple of instances (the ones I was referring above as deserving an unsportsmanlike DQ) where the competitor declared major (registering with a .40" Glock) and shot a 9mm (minor) Glock, or where the competitor used a gun to shoot the match and another one for the chrono verification...

BTW, I don't claim this procedure has been invented here in Italy: it's used in several other regions I have been competing in, and long before we decided to use it here...

Regarding the time consumption: yes, it takes some 10 mins per squad (assuming a 12 people squad) on each stage, but in april we've been able to run a 10 stages+chrono Lev.III match where an average of 130 shooters shot on saturday (8 am to 4 pm) and an equal number shot on sunday. And all competitors got chronoed too.