sqidd Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Hey all, new poster. I was shown the way over here for rules clarification. I'm new to USPSA shooting (4 matches so far), not new to shooting. I have been shooting production using a M&P9 PRO...not very impressively. But despite my less than impressive shooting I will not be prevented from one of my favorite past times, tricking stuff out. I can't leave anything alone. Good thing I am shooting production, if I was shooting Open things would get way out of hand/expensive. Before I get into this, yes I know it is most likely a waste of time, not worth the trouble, etc. I don't care, I like tricking stuff out for the pure enjoyment of it. Here is what I want to do. Through my business I have a good (cheap) connection for getting things coated. In this case titanium nitriding and DLC coating (Diamond Like Coating). I'm picking up a second M&P9 and I want to nitride all the guts and DLC coat the slide. Unless someone argues that there is a performance advantage (unlikely) I don't see where doing this would run afoul of the rules. The only advantage I see is that the parts will last longer...and look cool. Thoughts on it and its legality? I was going to include the relevant Production rules but for some reason I can't paste stuff into the thread (anyone else have this issue?). Thanks a lot! Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 (edited) 21.2a Slide - refinishing Per existing NROI ruling, cosmetically enhancing the finish of a slide is already ALLOWED in Production Division, provided that the finish provides no competitive advantage. This clause is NOW interpreted to specifically ALLOW refinishing the frame, as well as the slide, subject to the existing constraints on refinishing (cosmetic only, no competitive advantage). Special Notes/Clarifications: • Any finish which provides a noncosmetic function will be deemed PROHIBITED. For example, a gun finish which provides a roughened texture in an area where grip tape is not allowed (Appendix E4) is a PROHIBITED modification. 21.5 Exchange of minor INTERNAL components (strikers, sears, springs, connectors/disconnectors, and other wholly-internal parts) INTERNAL parts: This clause is NOW interpreted to mean that a broad range of INTERNAL parts may be modified or replaced – either with OEM or aftermarket parts. Special Notes/Clarifications: • Strikers, sears, springs, connectors/disconnectors, and any other part which is NOT visible when the gun is in battery is considered an INTERNAL part and may be modified or replaced unless otherwise prohibited in these provisions (see section 22 for specific prohibitions). • Guide rods are considered an “internal part” and may be modified and/or replaced with OEM or aftermarket guide rods even though part of the guide rod is externally visible when the gun is in battery. Note that the weight limits in D4-18 remain in force and relevant. • Any finish which provides a noncosmetic function will be deemed PROHIBITED. For example, a gun finish which provides a roughened texture in an area where grip tape is not allowed (Appendix E4) is a PROHIBITED modification. Sounds like you are good to go according to the rules. Just keep in mind that Production Division has a "catch all" rule that states: UNLESS a modification is SPECIFICALLY authorized in the rules or SPECIFICALLY authorized in an official, published NROI interpretation, it is considered a PROHIBITED MODIFICATION. You should always try to get clarification from NROI if you want to do something questionable. Edited November 27, 2013 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sqidd Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share Posted November 27, 2013 That's how I looked at it, thanks for the backup. How do I get clarification from NROI (and what does NROI stand for?)? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sqidd Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share Posted November 27, 2013 And how did you paste that text in? I'm guessing you didn't type all of that??? For some reason I can't paste on this forum (never had that happen before). Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Lately I have been having problems copying and pasting lots of stuff. Don't know that much about computers to be honest. So I saved the rule book to my desk top, I guess it's a PDF. I just open it up and copy paste from it to here. I know new members have issues posting pictures so maybe it carries over to copy paste as well? NROI: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uspsa.org%2Fnroi-uspsa.php&ei=gS2WUsf3FMutsASnzYGYAQ&usg=AFQjCNGu7IiU4I_jbl11QD9pAa7OJOWh7Q&sig2=ug22L21O0c0Ct-psU_n4Kg&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cWc The Director(DNROI) is John Amidon. You can reach him through the USPSA website. You can email him directly with a question and he will answer you. If he says, "yes, you can make that modification to your gun", keep that email in your range bag. When an RO tells you the gun is not legal you can whip out the email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 National Range Officer Institute. John Amidon is the Director. His email is dnroi@uspsa.org. I believe the ability to cut and paste to the forum is restricted for new members as a spam control feature. It goes away after a set number of posts. (I think) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sqidd Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share Posted November 27, 2013 Email sent, thanks for the contact info. The post count/pasting thing makes sense. We'll see what happens once I get more posts. Thanks again guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Bird Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I am like you. Like the cool look even if it does not score an Alpha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 (edited) As noted towards the end of the magwell for single stack/classic division thread, somebody noticed that one type of finish on the magwell is thicker than another finish of the same magwell from the same manufacturer. So if re-finishing a gun tightens up its tolerances, isn't the side effect of a cosmetic change a non-cosmetic function? (The common wisdom seems to be that the tighter the slide/frame fit, the better the gun is. Or at least it's one of the things you check when buying a used gun -- so there must be some competitive advantage to having a tighter fit vs. a looser fit.) Anyway, like you, I can't leave well enough alone, and I tinker with my guns as well. It's why I moved from Production to L-10. I like the challenge of shooting with just 10 round mags, but I also want the freedom to tinker with my gun. Edited November 27, 2013 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sqidd Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 (edited) Wow! That CORE is trick! Edited November 28, 2013 by sqidd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sqidd Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 The cool thing about Ti nitriding is that it's only 2-3 microns thick. Good heads up on the coating having a potential performance advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sqidd Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 John emailed me back. Ha says no problem with coatings as long as they don't weigh over 2oz. Not a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Would you be in Ohio by any chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sqidd Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 Nope, Michigan. But only about 35mi from Ohio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Oh. Just thought I might be able to help with the coating. I know a coating place also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxximuss Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I just want to confirm, the PVD coatings are allowed in Production? My wife's G34 is coated in TiCN (slide and barrel). She is shooting Production Nationals in Illinois this summer and I'd hate for it not to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I just want to confirm, the PVD coatings are allowed in Production? My wife's G34 is coated in TiCN (slide and barrel). She is shooting Production Nationals in Illinois this summer and I'd hate for it not to be correct. D4 21.2a Slide – refinishing Per existing NROI ruling, cosmetically enhancing the finish of a slide is already ALLOWED in Production Division, provided that the finish provides no com-petitive advantage. This clause is NOW interpreted to specifically ALLOW refinishing the frame, as well as the slide, subject to the existing constraints on refinishing (cos-metic only, no competitive advantage). Special Notes/Clarifications: • Any finish which provides a non-cosmetic function will be deemed PROHIBITED. For example, a gun finish which provides a roughened texture in an area where grip tape is not allowed (Appendix E4) is a PROHIBITED modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxximuss Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I just want to confirm, the PVD coatings are allowed in Production? My wife's G34 is coated in TiCN (slide and barrel). She is shooting Production Nationals in Illinois this summer and I'd hate for it not to be correct. D4 21.2a Slide – refinishing Per existing NROI ruling, cosmetically enhancing the finish of a slide is already ALLOWED in Production Division, provided that the finish provides no com-petitive advantage. This clause is NOW interpreted to specifically ALLOW refinishing the frame, as well as the slide, subject to the existing constraints on refinishing (cos-metic only, no competitive advantage). Special Notes/Clarifications: • Any finish which provides a non-cosmetic function will be deemed PROHIBITED. For example, a gun finish which provides a roughened texture in an area where grip tape is not allowed (Appendix E4) is a PROHIBITED modification. I have studied the rules, but where the debate lies is "no competitive advantage". I will play the devil's advocate here (because I obviously want it to be legal). DLC and Nitride coatings have a higher lubricity (less friction) which equates to faster cycle time (potentially). Now, whether that is measurable is another matter. The other advantages such as less wear on moving parts, easier cleaning, and aesthetics are obviously not competitively advantageous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Your fine. The competitive advantage is If you applied say truck bed liner or something else with grit to the slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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