RT1200B Consistency with Super 1050

[Twitchy]

I'm sure this has been beaten to death, but here goes.

I processed about 50 pieces of 300 BLK brass I cut down via bandsaw and already had them de-primed from my other 1050 setup to process 5.56. With only the trim/size die and RT1200 mounted on my 2nd 1050 for 300 BLK, I was getting literally less than .001" variation. I used it to FL resize and trim, and that was it.

Then I added a universal de-primer, so as not to over burden my other machine, and my variation went off the chart. I was getting .005"+ swings and burrs left on the case mouths with some looking like they had been wallowed out.

Any ideas? I've seen people say the variation of different dies on the toolhead can affect pressure/effectiveness by offsetting the load on the trimmer. Any truth to this or was I just getting really lucky.

I'll switch back to just the size/trim die tomorrow and see what happens.

BTW, I had my machine shop clearance the toolhead to accept the 300BLK size/trim die and I'm cutting brass down with the bandsaw first, so I'm no abusing the RT1200. That's the last thing I want to do after spending the money on it.

I just hope I can get back to the .001" variation by removing the universal de-primmer.

Another thing mentioned in other threads was to tighten the case plate/indexer, but I generally had it setup to minimize vertical movement.

I guess I should say I am trimming for 1.358" which is the middle ground for the cartridge, but I'm sort of OCD with this stuff and would rather have a tighter tolerance spread.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance guys.

Edit to correct tolerance measurements.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Twitchy

[Religious Shooter]

.0001? Or do you mean .001?

[RiggerJJ]

Decapping pin may be bottoming out in some of the cases tilting the head slightly sometimes but not all the time?

just a thought...

jj

[rjacobs]

I'm seeing anywhere between 1.355 to 1.360 on my setup through around 3k pieces of brass so far. I have a lee universal deprime, swage, trim/form, forster full lungth size die. I dont pre trim my brass at all just run it up in there. .005 variance is acceptable to me in mass production. I've got 100k pieces of brass to convert in this batch.

[Twitchy]

.0001? Or do you mean .001?

Yes. You are correct, I meant .001" variance. That would be awesome if it were that good.

[Twitchy]

I'm seeing anywhere between 1.355 to 1.360 on my setup through around 3k pieces of brass so far. I have a lee universal deprime, swage, trim/form, forster full lungth size die. I dont pre trim my brass at all just run it up in there. .005 variance is acceptable to me in mass production. I've got 100k pieces of brass to convert in this batch.

OK, So you're just running 5.56 full length brass into the trim/size die? In the grand scheme of things .005" isn't a huge variance, but I'm trying for better.

I've just recently switched from a few single stage presses to these 1050's, so I'm a bit more meticulous about tolerances. I may need to let my long-range accuracy brass prep mind-set go a little bit.

The only other thing that has me concerned is the wallowing and burrs I was getting on some. It was as if the case mouth was being expanded, but it was only happening after the trim/size die with the trimmer. (and not on all of them, just some) I'm now wondering if I had too much lube on and the case was spinning? Previously the trimming left a perfect edge on the mouth as you'd expect.

[rjacobs]

Like I said I don't pre trim. I don't care about blowing trimmer motors up. I swap carbide insert every 5k pieces of brass and expect my motors to last 40k.

What trimmer die are you using? Whidden or ch4d? I haven't read great things about the ch4d units and don't run them.

Eta: I get some light burrs but my stainless tumbler cleans everything up. I get no belling of the case mouth. Possibly running then through a second full length die gets rid of any belling.

I gauge each piece coming out through a sheriden engineering gauge which is min saami spec and I've so far had none that wouldn't gauge.

Edited October 21, 2013 by rjacobs

[Twitchy]

I got the trimmer/size die from Bradswarehouse, I wasn't aware of Whidden, but they look pretty similar. Can't speak to the quality difference though. The belling was only on this last batch. I've run probably a couple hundred testing before adding the universal deprimer and had no issues with belling or burring and they gauged good. I'll test some more later and see if I possibly put too much lube on. I just switched to a homemade mix of lanolin and alcohol, so I'm feeling out how much is necessary.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Twitchy

[rjacobs]

The ones from brads warehouse are whidden dies, even roll marked as such. Better dies than the ch4d dies.

Put a full length die and expander in the last station to give your brass a final size and it will remove any belling you may have plus pull the expander back through which, imo, is important for neck tension. Pull your expander ball assembly every 500 rounds or so and clean off any brass chips.

I get burrs on lots of my brass but like I said the stainless tumbler cleans it all up.

[charliez]

I have the same experience. It has to do with the heat transferred by the trimmer motor to the carbide cutter. It's all the same steel shaft. The cases will start at the size you set it to, then as the shaft heats up, the cases will start be trimmed shorter. This is due to the carbide cutter being pushed closer to the brass.

My solution was to sell the Dillon trimmer and buy a Giraud trimmer, nice consistent case length everytime.

[rjacobs]

I have the same experience. It has to do with the heat transferred by the trimmer motor to the carbide cutter. It's all the same steel shaft. The cases will start at the size you set it to, then as the shaft heats up, the cases will start be trimmed shorter. This is due to the carbide cutter being pushed closer to the brass.

I dont know about this. I have processed 1500 at one go and my motor was HOT and it spits out brass from the first piece to the last I run that vary by .005. Doesnt seem to matter WHEN the piece of brass goes through the trimmer. I think it has to do with VERY slight play in the tool head and it shifting just slightly. For what I do .005 variance is just fine. I couldnt process the volume I do through a Giraud by hand.

[charliez]

On that thought, yes my requirements differ. I reload for bolt action rifles and long range precision..

I processed 5000 rounds of 223 brass for my AR-15 matches, trimmed them (used the RT1200 btw), and haven't had a need to trim them again. The variance is similar to yours.

Didn't mean to bad mouth Dillon, it is great for what it is for.

Edited October 23, 2013 by charliez

[roxfo]

I also load for long range precision bolt gun. Last batch I trimmed on my 1050 was about 300 rounds of .308. I measured 20 of them and the ES case length variance was 0.001".

I allow between 30 minutes and one hour of warm-up running, to help towards achieving thermal equilibrium before starting to trim (I'm sure there will be some extra heat generated once actual cutting starts though). I also run a large desk fan to try and take some heat away from the motor, and keep the chip vac running during warm-up. Smooth cycling with a dwell of a couple of seconds at full-stroke (i.e. while cutting) works for me, and at a rate of approx. 600 to 700 per hour.

Lubing evenly and just the right amount is important too. I use lanolin + alcohol in a fine spray, and allow enough time for the lanolin to evaporate. If you're not getting a clean cut something is definitely wrong. It's an interesting idea that the cases may be spinning, but I would have thought you would see evidence of that, e.g. rings scratched into the cases. Could this be due to the different initial length, or finish, caused by the band-saw cut?

Edited October 24, 2013 by roxfo

[RDA]

Lubing evenly and just the right amount is important too. I use lanolin + alcohol in a fine spray, and allow enough time for the lanolin to evaporate

How long does it take for lanolin to evaporate and doesn't that defeat the purpose??

[roxfo]

 

Lubing evenly and just the right amount is important too. I use lanolin + alcohol in a fine spray, and allow enough time for the lanolin to evaporate

How long does it take for lanolin to evaporate and doesn't that defeat the purpose??

Ooops - of course it's the alcohol that does the evaporating! Doh!

..

[Twitchy]

I also load for long range precision bolt gun. Last batch I trimmed on my 1050 was about 300 rounds of .308. I measured 20 of them and the ES case length variance was 0.001".

I allow between 30 minutes and one hour of warm-up running, to help towards achieving thermal equilibrium before starting to trim (I'm sure there will be some extra heat generated once actual cutting starts though). I also run a large desk fan to try and take some heat away from the motor, and keep the chip vac running during warm-up. Smooth cycling with a dwell of a couple of seconds at full-stroke (i.e. while cutting) works for me, and at a rate of approx. 600 to 700 per hour.

Lubing evenly and just the right amount is important too. I use lanolin + alcohol in a fine spray, and allow enough time for the lanolin to evaporate. If you're not getting a clean cut something is definitely wrong. It's an interesting idea that the cases may be spinning, but I would have thought you would see evidence of that, e.g. rings scratched into the cases. Could this be due to the different initial length, or finish, caused by the band-saw cut?

I used less lube on the next batch and didn't get any wallowed/belled base mouths. The variance is still there though. When I was getting .001" variance I was only running small batches of maybe 20-50 pieces and checking with a gage and caliper.

The batch with .005" variance and belled/wallowed mouths had a liberal amount of lube applied as it was my first batch with my homemade lube. I didn't notice anything to indicate it was spinning, and even tried to put a finger between the shell plate and case to feel for spinning, but didn't have enough room between the die and shell plate. I've since learned less is more so to speak.

I may try to let the trimmer warm up before I start and see if that makes a difference. BTW-I run the vacuum before I start the trimmer and leave it running after I shut the trimmer off. I cycle the trimmer a few times after I've completed trimming to get any brass shaving out that may have been stuck in there.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Twitchy