Green Book head scratchers US6.1.1, 9.5.5

[kevin c]

US 6.1.1

"...Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of the course of fire, unless (otherwise specified) and the targets taped between strings... (see also Rule 9.5.5).

9.5.5

"The minimum score for a course of fire or string will be zero."

This sounds contradictory to me and seems subject to abuse. Do you score after all the strings or after each? How can you give a minimum score of zero per string unless you score and tape as you go?

Scoring after each string can really be abused:

Imagine a four string Standard Exercise, each a draw and shoot two on each of three partial targets.

Shooter A has all A hits for a total of 120 points, and has runs of 15, 13, 12 and 10 seconds, his last being his best. His HF is 2.4, scored either way.

Shooter B tries to burn it down, and while he has all 10 second runs, he has two mikes and four A's on each of the first three runs, and matches Shooter A's 30 pts in 10 seconds on the last. His HF is a piddling 0.75, scored either way.

Shooter C has a great first run, matching the best of the other two shooters with 30 points in 10 seconds. He then proceeds to dump one round only into the berm for each of the next three strings, with draws of .65, .65 and .70. Added up at the end of the COF, miss and FTE penalties would give him a HF of zero, but if he only gets a minimum of zero per string for the last three strings, then 30 points divided by his total time of 12 seconds would give him a winning HF of 2.5.

So... which is it or which should it be?

[Vince Pinto]

The relevant rules, with the essential differences in bold, are:

IPSC 6.1.1 String – A separately timed and scored component of a Standard Exercise. Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of each string, and results achieved in each string are then tallied to produce a final stage result (also see Rule 9.5.5).

Under IPSC rules, all strings are timed and scored separately, period, to avoid the possibility of "stacking" and "make up" shots.

USPSA 6.1.1 String - A separately timed component of a Standard Exercise. Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of the course of fire, unless the course of fire specifies that they shall be recorded and the targets taped between strings. The time component of all strings will be totaled and the results achieved are then tallied to produce a final stage result (also see Rule 9.5.5).

Although I cannot speak officially for the USPSA, the reason cited to me for making the default scoring method to be "at the end of the COF, unless otherwise specified" is because longer distances (e.g. 50m) are typical for Standard Exercises in the US, so there would be considerable time wasted walking up & down range to score each string. Of course the USPSA version of the rule still gives the MD the option of electing to score each string seperately.

In my opinion (and of course I'm biased here!), I think the US version allows for abuse if everything is scored at the end. Since each string is a seperate encounter, it should not be possible for competitors to "recover" from errors in earlier strings or to "stack" shots. Anyway, having said all that, I hope Troy McManus, Bruce Gary or Gary Stevens will weigh in on this subject, in order to more lucidly explain the USPSA viewpoint and to answer your question in USPSA terms.

As far as Rule 9.5.5 is concerned, the "minimum zero" is there to prevent a negative score from one string being carried forward to the next string, just as the lowest score on a regular stage is also zero for the same reason.

[Flexmoney]

Hmmm...I am sure this rule explains the 3 popper stages at the Nationals...but I need sleep...will have to read it tomorrow.

[mactiger]

Get lots of sleep, Flex.

Those stages were designed to be just 8 round quickies. Nothing more, nothing less.

The answer is both yes and no.

For Virginia count stages only:

If each string were scored separately, in your example, Kevin, the competitor would zero the stage. Here's why: First string: 6 A's, no penalties, plus the time.

#2: 2 FTE, 6 M.

#3: same as above

#4: same as above

Then, all of this is tallied, therefore the competitor has, at least, 6 FTE penalties, which negates the 30 points he shot. I say 2 per string, trying to be generous, since the competitor did fire at least one shot. If he didn't put it in the direction of the targets, though, this could be 3 per string. The misses would add up, too, but they really aren't needed to cause the competitor to zero the course.

If they were not scored separately, the results would be the same, because the competitor did not engage the targets with the right number of rounds.

For fixed time, no matter how it's scored, there are no penalties for misses or FTE's, so your scenario would hold. However, since you stated times, I'm assuming that this is VC. And, since strings are only used in Standard exercises, the course must be either FT or VC.

Each string may be scored separately, but the stage results are entered as a whole, not per string.

Does this clear it up? Vince had the answer all along.

The time component of all strings will be totaled and the results achieved are then tallied to produce a final stage result (also see Rule 9.5.5).

Troy

[Nik Habicht]

Get lots of sleep, Flex.

Those stages were designed to be just 8 round quickies. Nothing more, nothing less.

Troy,

maybe you need a nap too ---- I distinctly remember them being six round quickies ---- and that for once I didn't need your help in knocking 'em down....

[mactiger]

Yep, you are correct--about the stages and my needing a nap.

Thanks for picking that up.

Troy

[Vince Pinto]

Those stages were designed to be just 8 round quickies.

When I was younger, 8 round quickies were challenging but still possible, however these days I'm pretty happy if I can score a 1 round quickie, provided my nurse is standing by with oxygen ......

[kevin c]

I guess that I am interpreting "scoring after each string" and "scoring after completing the COF" as meaning adding up points and penalties at the time of and for each string in the first case, and after everything in the second, and applying 9.5.5 as I go along. I added up the points for Shooter C as follows:

1st string 30 points scored, no penalties, 10 seconds.

2nd string 0 points scored, 2 FTE's, 6 mikes, 0.65 seconds. Penalty deductions result in a negative point score for the string, changed to the minimum of 0 points, per 9.5.5.

Ditto the last two strings in 0.65 and 0.70 seconds each.

Total points 30+0+0+0=30, divided by total time of 10+0.65+0.65+0.70=12 seconds, gives the HF of 2.5 (vs zeroing out with scoring after the COF).

So, the way you are scoring it, Mac, you are RECORDING points and penalties per string, and then ADDING THEM UP only at the end, whereas I am interpreting 9.5.5 as saying that the minimum score of zero per string requires adding up BOTH points and penalties for each string as you go, in order to see if your score for the string will be greater than zero or not. I guess I overread the rule.

[Neil Beverley]

Troy/Kevin

Rule 9.5.5 does seem to contradict US 6.1.1. It strikes me that for US 6.1.1 to be correct there should have been a US 9.5.5 with an exception included but has it reads 9.5.5 is pretty clear.

[Vince Pinto]

I guess that I am interpreting "scoring after each string" and "scoring after completing the COF" as meaning adding up points and penalties at the time of and for each string in the first case, and after everything in the second, and applying 9.5.5 as I go along.

The IPSC "separately timed and scored ...... following completion of each string" means that after you shoot each string, your time is recorded, your targets are scored and patched, then you shoot the second string etc. Despite this possibly being more time consuming, there's no way in the world a competitor can make-up or stack shots.

The USPSA "separately timed and scored ...... following completion of the course of fire" means each string is timed separately, but you don't score and patch targets until all strings are completed. Although this version is definitely faster to run, strings can be gamed.

Common Rule 9.5.5 effectively says that a negative score on one stirng or COF is "rounded up" to zero - in other words, a negative score in one string or COF will not affect another string or COF. Of course with the USPSA version, this rule can only be applied to the total COF, not to each string.

Hope this makes sense. If it does, can somebody please explain it to me?