New rule: Penalty steel doesn't fall

[DogmaDog]

OK, here's the question:

The new rule book says that if you hit a steel penalty target, that it doesn't have to fall for you to receive the penalty. However, if it doesn't fall, the RO declares "range equipment failure", and you get a re-shoot.

So if you get a reshoot, then you start over from scratch, right? Or does the penalty carry over somehow from the one run to the next?

Sorry for not quoting the rule. I'm on a LINUX system that can't read the PDF files on uspsa.org.

DD

[Vince Pinto]

DD,

A very good question, which I cannot answer, because it's one of the USPSA changes I really don't understand. Anyway, here are the relevant rules:

IPSC 4.3.1.7 Penalty metal targets designed to fall or overturn when hit, but which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways, will be treated as range equipment failure.

USPSA 4.3.1.7 Metal penalty targets designed to fall when hit, but which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways, shall be treated as range equipment failure. However, any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance with Rule 9.4.3.

Common 9.4.3 Each hit visible on the scoring area of a penalty metal target will be penalized the equivalent of twice the point value of a maximum scoring hit, up to a maximum of 2 hits per penalty target, regardless of whether or not it is designed to fall (see Rules 4.3.1.7 and 4.3.1.8).

[SteveZ]

USPSA 4.3.1.7 Metal penalty targets designed to fall when hit, but which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways, shall be treated as range equipment failure. However, any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance with Rule 9.4.3.

Doesn't this basically read that if a metal penalty target somehow turns on edge (where "somehow" does not equate to being "shot/struck/hit") then the shooter is required to reshoot? The second part of the rule "any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit " seem to indicate this being the case.

If a round struck a scoring metal target and then somehow traversed across the range and stuck (eg splatter) a penalty metal target causing the penalty target to turn sideways...it would seem that this rule would apply.

[Vince Pinto]

Steven,

John Amidon is the guy to issue interpretations of USPSA rules, but consider a penalty target which is supposed to fall but, when a competitor hits it, the popper turns edge on and remains upright.

In the first part of the rule, it's declared REF. However in the second part of the rule, notably the language "when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty" it appears that the penalty for hitting it still applies, despite the REF, and I believe that is DD's query in his opening post.

[SteveZ]

In the first part of the rule, it's declared REF. However in the second part of the rule, notably the language "when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty" it appears that the penalty for hitting it still applies, despite the REF, and I believe that is DD's query in his opening post.

Yeah..I see what your saying. I guess that's where the interpretation of "accidently" comes into question. To me "accidently" doesn't include accidently shooting the penalty target...it means everything but shooting the penalty target. The second part basically says if you shoot it (directly) you'll be dinged with a penalty regardless what the target does afterwards (stand, fall, turn, etc).

[DogmaDog]

Vince,

Thanks for quoting the rules for me. Yes, you've got my question right. By my reading, the rule only addresses situations in which the target is hit by a bullet, so "accidentally turned edgewise" by wind or earthquake or whatever doesn't count. We're talking about the target getting shot, and accidentally failing to fall down.

My understanding is that if a reshoot is issued, the shooter starts the stage over from scratch...for example, if I were in the middle of a run, and shot a no-shoot paper target, but then the RO bumped me accidentally and I asked for a re-shoot, then I wouldn't get a no-shoot penalty--my score would be as shot on the second run, as if the first had never happened.

The new rules suggest that there's a different procedure, but they don't explicitly say that the penalty from one run is carried over to the second run.

Also, it would be inconsistent to carry over a penalty for a no-shoot on steel resulting in REF, but not to carry over a no-shoot on paper, or a foot fault, or a miss in any other situation in which a reshoot was later warranted.

DogmaDog

[vincent]

I am a USPSA newbie so I'm seeing the rules through fresh eyes.

My interpretation of the USPSA version follows Steven's thoughts:

It's a range equipment failure if the metal penalty target turns on edge or sideways for a reason not related to shooting it (wind moves it, splatter moves it, etc).

If the metal penalty target is shot with a full or parital hit, no matter what happens to the target afterwards the penalty is scored.

-----

Newbie Question:

If you shoot a paper penalty target, break the stick, and the no-shoot paper target falls off of the target stand, would that be considered a range equipment failure?? I wouldn't think so. This would make USPSA 4.3.1.7 consistent across paper and metal penalty targets. ???

[Flexmoney]

Here is my read:

USPSA 4.3.1.7 Metal penalty targets designed to fall when hit, but which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways, shall be treated as range equipment failure.

Sounds like a plate to me. And, if it doesn't fall as designed (thus disappearing), then the COF has changed, because a sideways plate is now out there that shouldn't be. Reshoot.

[

However, any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance with Rule 9.4.3.

This sounds like one that doesn't turn, right? But it is hit (possibly a full-sized popper with a minor edge hit?). The cof hasn't changed becasue of REF, so no reshoot. Score the hit.

[driver8M3]

If you shoot a paper penalty target, break the stick, and the no-shoot paper target falls off of the target stand, would that be considered a range equipment failure??

never thought of that. if you get a reshoot for that, next time i hit a no-shoot, i'll empty a couple of mags in the direction of the stick. of course, hitting a no-shoot just proves i cant hit what i'm aiming at, so what are the chances i can hit the stick?

[kevin c]

I think that this covers it:

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors...

4.6.2 A competitor WHO IS UNABLE TO COMPLETE A COURSE OF FIRE due to range equipment failure...must be required to reshoot...

It is still possible for the competitor to continue and complete the COF after dinging the nonfalling penalty target, even if it doesn't fall (unless the the penalty target is an activator of some sort, though I doubt that would happen often).The COF has not changed otherwise and the shooting problem is still the same.

The clock is still running. If the competitor simply stops, he would be assessed FTE and miss penalties on the remaining targets with his time being to the shot on the penalty target.

If he completes the COF, then he is simply penalized on the penalty target hit, even though it didn't fall, and which will need repair before the NEXT shooter.

[Vince Pinto]

Newbie Question: If you shoot a paper penalty target, break the stick, and the no-shoot paper target falls off of the target stand, would that be considered a range equipment failure??

Yes.

if you get a reshoot for that, next time i hit a no-shoot, i'll empty a couple of mags in the direction of the stick.

Such actions would most likely cause Section 10.6 to be invoked. I've seen quite a few legitimate shots break target sticks, and I've awarded reshoots. However a competitor who hits a no-shoot then tries to be Teddy Treefeller would get severely spanked, but not in a fun way. This is similar to the rules below concerning loss of eye or ear protection:

5.4.3 If a Range Official notices that a competitor has lost or displaced their eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or has commenced a course of fire without them, the Range Official must immediately stop the competitor who will be required to reshoot the course of fire after the protective devices have been restored.

5.4.4 A competitor who inadvertently loses eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or commences a course of fire without them, is entitled to stop, point their firearm in a safe direction and indicate the problem to the Range Official, in which case the provisions of the previous rule will apply.

5.4.5 Any attempt to gain a competitive advantage by removing eye and/or ear protection during a course of fire will be considered unsportsmanlike conduct (see Rule 10.6.3).

Hope this helps.