hpnewby Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 I love the way this powder shoots - accuracy and ease of cleaning are the best I've tried. But, I have an annoying problem. When I shoot commercial ammo (.223 or 5.56) the bolt carrier locks back on an empty mag every time. When I run CFE223 loads (no matter the bullet weight) I can't get the carrier to lock back ever. The gun is 18", rifle length gas, Syrac adj. gas block, JP LMOS, JP SCS. I've checked and rechecked gas port alignment, the rings are good, gas tube is clean and clear. When I run commercial ammo the gas block is set to about the middle of the adjustment range. For the CFE loads I run it wide open and still no locking. They cycle with no issue until the block is almost all the way closed, at just about the same point as any commercial round. My current favorite load for accuracy (with the bulk bullets I have) is 27.0gr CFE223 with Tula SR and 55gr V-Max loaded to 2.255 OAL. I've run all the way up to 27.7gr with this load and stopped because the primers were getting really flat, but still no carrier lock. I've also tried with Federal SRP. Anybody got any ideas? I wouldn't have thought commercial ammo powder would be that much different from CFE223. I have never chrono'd these loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxerglocker Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 I would definitely chrono those vmax loads and compare the velocity against a different bullet type such as a standard fmj with the same charge rate. It sound like your barrel doesn't like the profile of the vmax and is not building enough back pressure. I have loaded both the Horandy Vmax and SP in 55g weights and noticed unreliable BCG lock back with the vmax from time to time. I run right at 27.5g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpnewby Posted May 26, 2013 Author Share Posted May 26, 2013 (edited) What primers do you use? I pulled back the charge when I saw the Tulas stretching so much. Maybe I shouldn't be so worried about it until I see other problems? I've also tried with 55gr Winchester FMJ bulk (ugh), Hornady 55gr FMJ, 50gr vmax, and 68gr match. I don't understand how the gun can cycle so reliably, but never lock back. All mags are PMag 20 and 30 rounders - i've tried them all. Edited May 26, 2013 by hpnewby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxerglocker Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 I use mostly Tula .223M though the last time I use CCI SRPs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpnewby Posted May 26, 2013 Author Share Posted May 26, 2013 I talked to two of the Hodgedon guys at the NRA show in Houston, and neither of them had heard of such an issue either. I heard of some people trying reduced power springs on their silent captured springs. I may have to call JP and give that I try next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig Shooter Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 I have been using 26.9 grains of CFE with Everglades Ammo 55 grain bullets and Wolf Magnum SRP with good luck. Shooting them in a S&W VTAC II and Colt 14.5 inch M4 with good luck. Tried P-mags, D&H and Colt factory mag's on both and the bolt stays open when empty. I am not certain how a bullet profile could effect that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpnewby Posted May 27, 2013 Author Share Posted May 27, 2013 Sig, Those are both over-gassed guns. Your gas port is unrestricted and ported to a much higher pressure with more residence time. Wouldn't expect that to have a problem. The SPR only has about 3.5" of residence length and runs at a much lower pressure. Is CFE223 just a faster burn than other commonly used .223 powders? What are most people's CFE charges with 55gr bullets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Rod Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 What are most people's CFE charges with 55gr bullets? 26.5gr works in my 16", 11.5", and 10.5" rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighCountryStalker Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Curious if you got this sorted out and what the conclusion was? I run a Syrac upper with adjustable gas block and 27.1gr of CFE223 as my go to load with no issues UNLESS my BCG starts running dry and hot. I only keep the gas block approx 1/4 open and if I opened it further I could pour dirt in the thing and it would cycle and lock. It just seems odd that yours cycle consistently but won't make that last bit of travel to lock. Out of curiosity I'd try oiling up the BCG rails and see if that made a difference, especially if its new. Where on the clock do the the cycled rounds eject to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rboyes Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 (edited) Are you sure your Syrac gas block is seated correctly? I know you stated that you checked gas port alignment, but just to be sure here's a document from JP covering the Syrac block since it was designed to be seated on rifles with GI style handguards/rails. If the block is up against the shoulder of the barrel without the handguard ring then the block will be off just a bit. Had it happen on a 308 AR I built and gave me fits until I figured out that was the cause. http://www.jprifles.com/document_pdfs/JPGSSO_556.pdf Edited July 6, 2013 by rboyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpnewby Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 Curious if you got this sorted out and what the conclusion was? I run a Syrac upper with adjustable gas block and 27.1gr of CFE223 as my go to load with no issues UNLESS my BCG starts running dry and hot. I only keep the gas block approx 1/4 open and if I opened it further I could pour dirt in the thing and it would cycle and lock. It just seems odd that yours cycle consistently but won't make that last bit of travel to lock. Out of curiosity I'd try oiling up the BCG rails and see if that made a difference, especially if its new. Where on the clock do the the cycled rounds eject to? Still not sorted out. What barrel and gas system are you using? I think part of my problem is that I have the 18" and rifle length port combined with a leaky gas block. Not enough pressure for not enough time is causing it, I believe. I clean and oil every time I get home from the range. They eject to about 2:30 facing downrange. Are you sure your Syrac gas block is seated correctly? I know you stated that you checked gas port alignment, but just to be sure here's a document from JP covering the Syrac block since it was designed to be seated on rifles with GI style handguards/rails. If the block is up against the shoulder of the barrel without the handguard ring then the block will be off just a bit. Had it happen on a 308 AR I built and gave me fits until I figured out that was the cause. http://www.jprifles.com/document_pdfs/JPGSSO_556.pdf It is seated correctly. I measured the holes and did the math to set it up center on center, twice. My next try might be to seal it off with the loctite they recommend on their instructions. Has anyone ever tried to seal off the gas tube where it comes out of the block? That's where I think I'm leaking the most based on the carbon trail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighCountryStalker Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 I'm using a Syrac 16" barrel with mid length gas port. You almost had me convinced on the leaky gas port/rifle length idea but the ejection to 2:30 doesn't add up cause that seems slightly over gassed again as they hit the ejection block hard enough to pitch them forward although that's not a perfect indicator. I've got an over gassed carbine with a fixed gas block that throws them to the 2:00 but on the mid length Syrac when tuned right I can set a bucket out at 3:30 and put them all in the bucket. I wouldn't hesitate to call Syrac and pick their brains just to make sure the rifle length isn't an issue. When they got slammed in the backorder/supply craziness I got a call from Jason Adams directly apologizing and offering alternative solutions. Got to love a small company when the president himself calls customers. I'm still scratching my head on why the factory loads operate correctly which makes me suspect the reloads before I'd give up on the gun. Have you chrono'd the comparison of factory loads to your reloads? I'm wondering if something like neck tension or boxersglockers suggestion of the bullet itself isn't causing some issue with the reloads. My CFE loads are only mid charge weight, not hot loads at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpnewby Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 Sorry, I've been on the road for a while with out time to get on here. I haven't chrono'd any loads. I work charges up based on groups and pressure signs right now (the poor man's way). The bullet idea is out of the question for me since I've tried 5 different ones with the same result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpnewby Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 Still haven't bought a chronograph, but a friendly range member let me shoot over his today. I'm at 27.0gr and shot 2860fps, SD 24fps in 5 shots. WAAAAAYYYYY slow, right? Hodgdon website show starting loads around 25-26gr for 55gr running 3100fps. Anyone got some chrono data with CFE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 That sounds really slow. I had a similar issue. My BLC2 loads would cycle and lock back fine, but when I switched over to AA2230 I had to open the gas block just to get them to cycle enough to eject and more to get lock back. This led me to conclude that different powders produce different gas volumes and not to think about pressure only. Wish I could help more but I just scored a pound of CFE to play with today. BTW, I was running a rifle gas 18" Satern barrel and the funky LOKI lightened BCG. I've since sold that upper and haven't had any issues with my current one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic2377 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 I fought a recurrent issue like this as well with an adjustable gas block and an 18" SPR. In my case, the gas block was a Kies. After installation of a VLTOR clamp-on block, all issues disappeared and it ran everything like a champ. Similar to you, the issues were not consistent and varied per type of powder and load level. It locked back 100% with 5.56 or heavy bullet/Varget loads, but would fail to lock back with 50/55 gr H335 or lower-powered factory loads (PMC Bronze), around 50% of the time. If I were you, I would try a standard BCG, GI CAR buffer + spring, and good quality non-adjustable gas block and see what happens. Your rifle should still be able to run 55 gr loads at 2850. Then reintroduce the fancy parts one by one... I don't have much input specifically regarding CFE223. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighCountryStalker Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Actually, I don't think it is slow. The Hodgdon manual references a longer barrel length. Out of your 16" barrel it should be approx 300 fps slower than published so you're right in there and almost exactly where I am with 27.1 gr of CFE. I'll have to wait till I get home to see my Chrono info for CFE but I'll pass it on when I do. The mystery continues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpnewby Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 Not a big difference, but it's an 18". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighCountryStalker Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 At the risk of a million jokes, 2" makes a difference... You didn't by chance Chrono any factory loads out of the same gun to compare? Wish you were in Montana cause you really have my curiosity going and I enjoy working thru these problems. Also wondering if you have shot any other of your own reloads and how they compared. Just trying to identify the variable that causes your failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpnewby Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 (edited) I really need to buy a chrono. I only had one load with me and the guy I was with just had enough to test what he was doing. I have some easy access H335. When I have time (ha ha, duck season starts Saturday) I'll make some of those and a few 27.5gr CFE rounds to try. Who knows, I may finally spring for a $115 chrony. Edited November 5, 2013 by hpnewby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighCountryStalker Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 Skip the Chrony and order the ProChrono Digital for less than $100 delivered from Amazon. All you need to add in the confusion is a chrono that gives inconsistent results. After a year of scratching my head with the Chrony I grabbed the ProChrono and it was the best investment I've made in a long time but that's a whole other thread. For my AR's my 2 favorite powders are the CFE and H335. You can't go wrong with either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushmeat Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 I fought a recurrent issue like this as well with an adjustable gas block and an 18" SPR. In my case, the gas block was a Kies. After installation of a VLTOR clamp-on block, all issues disappeared and it ran everything like a champ. Similar to you, the issues were not consistent and varied per type of powder and load level. It locked back 100% with 5.56 or heavy bullet/Varget loads, but would fail to lock back with 50/55 gr H335 or lower-powered factory loads (PMC Bronze), around 50% of the time. If I were you, I would try a standard BCG, GI CAR buffer + spring, and good quality non-adjustable gas block and see what happens. Your rifle should still be able to run 55 gr loads at 2850. Then reintroduce the fancy parts one by one... I don't have much input specifically regarding CFE223. Good luck. +1. I run an 18" SPR as well and don't have a problem running 55fmjs at 2600 fps. In fact, during the recent shortage I conserved the CFE and 2460 for my 69gr loads and used leftover batches of slower powder from my long range rifle such as 2700 and Big Game for the hoser loads. Wouldn't suggest you do that. Just illustrating how un-finicky the gun was without the "fancy" parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Hunter Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Check the gas block for leaks. I had a similar problem, drove me nuts. Changed the gas block out of frustration - fixed. Good with all ammo, all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlussoro Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 id check what DOC HUNTER said, I run CFE 27.4 in 55grs 26 in 73gr bergers and 25 in 80gr AMAXs with no issues, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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