No Shoot Poppers

[Harmon]

is it just me, or does anyone else hate no shoot poppers? what if a bullet frag from an adjacent popper causes it to fall? I like poppers that are black, used as hardcover and set up not to fall...the steel goes PING, but they didnt get the hit on the right popper..

also what i like is a white NO shoot IPSC target behind a popper or steel plate..seems those B class open shooter locally are all too eager to blast away as soon as the dot covers white...when the steel doesnt fall they usually find themselves trying(really hard) to hit the steel instead of the poor no shoot behind it.

those are those guys that double-tapped their way to B class, but cant get out of it.. silly open shooters...

[Jim Norman]

Paint the NS popper after each shooter if required.

Set them that same as a Hardcover, in other words, set them not to fall and just count the hits (up to two after 12-1-04)

Or set them to fall and score one NS only if the popper is down. Consider anything less than down the same as you'd consider a hit on the non-scoring border of a paper N/S. After all, if you have to actually knock steel down to score, shouldn't you also have to knock it down to get a penalty?

There, I've stated two opposing positions in on post. Lets see which way the wind blows on this and maybe make another new rule.

Jim

[Neil Beverley]

Paint the NS popper after each shooter if required.

Set them that same as a Hardcover, in other words, set them not to fall and just count the hits (up to two after 12-1-04)

Or set them to fall and score one NS only if the popper is down. Consider anything less than down the same as you'd consider a hit on the non-scoring border of a paper N/S. After all, if you have to actually knock steel down to score, shouldn't you also have to knock it down to get a penalty?

There, I've stated two opposing positions in on post. Lets see which way the wind blows on this and maybe make another new rule.

Jim

There are sometimes when I'm really glad that I specialise in IPSC shotgun!

The Shotgun rules (only) state that penalty targets must fall to count. There is no alternative to this. If they don't fall then no penalty, even if hit.

As a matter of course I ask ROs to repaint after any visible hit. I've known splashback off other targets to take out a penalty target. If there are no strike marks on the paint of the front of the target then the penalty target hasn't been hit in the true sense of the word but instead has fallen because of splashback or vibration. This nigh on eliminates disputes and is right and proper to protect competitors from wrong calls.

[Flexmoney]

I split this off the "color of steel" thread...ya bunch of drifters.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Excuse me, but it is my strong recollection that if you strike a N-S popper and leave a mark, you get the penalty regardless of whether it falls or not. (Alas, I cannot cite the relevant rule at the moment.)

If the rule has been changed, then my club will go back to using N-S poppers. As long as the rule is as I recall it (silly rule) you won't see a N-S popper at my club.

[Neil Beverley]

Excuse me, but it is my strong recollection that if you strike a N-S popper and leave a mark, you get the penalty regardless of whether it falls or not. (Alas, I cannot cite the relevant rule at the moment.)

Patrick

You are correct with regards to Handgun and Rifle but Shotgun has a different rule.

Actually there was a bit of a error and I think you'll find that the US Handgun rule 4.3.1.7 was accidentally pasted to the US shotgun rule. John Amidon has then tried to fix it with an interpretation. Please see below:

IPSC 4.3.1.7 Penalty metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Penalty metal targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways or which a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them or for any other accidental reason, will be treated as range equipment failure (see Rule 4.6.1).

US 4.3.1.7 Penalty metal targets designed to fall when hit, but which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways, shall be treated as range equipment failure. However, any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance with Rule 9.4.3.

US NROI Ruling: "Any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty" the interpretation of FULL OR PARTIAL DIAMETER, that the center of the pattern strikes anywhere on the penalty target.

IPSC AND US 9.4.3 Metal penalty targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score and then will be penalized the equivalent of twice the point value of a maximum scoring hit.

Actually I don't think the ruling is altogether clear and I'll email John accordingly. I'll let you know what he says in due course. I suspect he may have looked up the handgun rule 9.4.3 when he wrote the interpretation rather than the shotgun rule.

The IPSC Shotgun rule is clear. If it doesn't fall it doesn't count.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I wish the handgun rule was the same. Until it is, no N-S poppers at our club.

[Harmon]

where you shoot at Mr Sweeney? i really dont like N-S poppers...

glad our local clubs dont*normally* have any.

[Neil Beverley]

Further to my post above about the SG rule I've thought some more about the USPSA rule changes.

My personal take on it is that the NROI Ruling started to fix half a problem but in the end has little relevance:

US NROI Ruling: "Any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty" the interpretation of FULL OR PARTIAL DIAMETER, that the center of the pattern strikes anywhere on the penalty target.

USPSA Shotgun 4.3.1.7 has regretably used the wrong language to deal with shotgun and both it and the NROI ruling ends up being ambiguous. However, there is a ignificant pointer to 9.4.3.

Shotgun Rule 9.4.3 is clear "Metal penalty targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score".

As I said above this is my personal interpretation. I've emailed John Amidon as I said I would, with a copy to Mike Voigt. I've had an acknowledgement and we now must let the cogs grind!

When/if I get some substantive reply I'll let you know.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I shoot at Livingston Gun Club, Brighton, MI. Our ROs and staff are far too busy to pore over every single popper looking for evidence of stray hits. Rather than try to find penalty marks on standing poppers, we don't use them. Rather than use the old and rational rules (If it doesn't go down, it isn't a penalty) and be hosed by some range lawyer over not following the current rules, we don't use 'em.

Before this interpretation, we were often liberal in our use of N-S poppers. But then we've got swarms of steel to use, and not having N-S poppers just means that much more steel to shoot.

[Jim Norman]

All in favor of N/S Poppers having to fall to count say "AYE!"

All in fovor of scoring a penalty on a N/S Popper if there is a scrtach on the paint job, say :ow, that hurt, why'd you throw that rock at me?"

Humor mode off, but I think that there could be a point in all of this

Jim Norman

[blackdragon]

I don't mind them, It's just another shooting solution to solve, But in general if you hit one, fall or not everyone in the squad knows it!

Ivan.

[Sterling White]

They suck (N/S Poppers)! Its a good waste of space......this is a shooting game not a don't shootem game. Doesn't make any sense why someone would go to the trouble of hauling heavy steel around and not shooting it. Throw up a no shoot paper target if you don't want something to shoot at. STEEL MUST BE SHOT>>>>Dumb idea!

[Neil Beverley]

All in favor of N/S Poppers having to fall to count say "AYE!"

All in fovor of scoring a penalty on a N/S Popper if there is a scrtach on the paint job, say :ow, that hurt, why'd you throw that rock at me?"

Humor mode off, but I think that there could be a point in all of this

Jim Norman

See, Jim! I said we had things we agreed on!

[blackdragon]

But Sterling, They do want you to shoot them, thats why they put them out there! You remember some of the sadistic stage from Durango

Ivan

[Neil Beverley]

Metal penalty targets remaining upright when hit isn't new. It was there in the 14th edition with different wording but the same thing.

The old IPSC rule left it to the match organizers decision as to whether it stayed upright or fell. The US rule changed to this "must stay upright".

The option continues in the 2004 IPSC rules, i.e. it can be declared as must fall to count, sadly (IMHO) this aspect has been changed in the US version.

[Sterling White]

But Sterling, They do want you to shoot them, thats why they put them out there! You remember some of the sadistic stage from Durango 

Ivan

Those were the days! But I still think its dumb to have N/S poppers on a stage! did I forget to tell you what I thought of the idea? dumb dumb dumb Steel screams at me......shooot me.....shooot me! Hey Ivan - shot a match in NC yesterday with TJ....that boy rocks on steel!

[Jim Norman]

Set up three poppers, two shoots with a N/S covering between, Set the N/S to NOT fall. That is a test of shooting skill.

Another time recently we had a demented stage designer set up three NS poopers in front of three paper targets that had to be engaged through a port. If you hit any one of the FALLING N/S poppers the port snapped shut with a N/S and you had to go to two additional positions to see the targets that were previously available through the port.

Great stage!

Jim

[Jim Norman]

Posted to wrong thread in error

[Flexmoney]

Another time recently we had a demented stage designer set up three NS poopers in front of three paper targets that had to be engaged through a port. If you hit any one of the FALLING N/S poppers the port snapped shut with a N/S and you had to go to two additional positions to see the targets that were previously available through the port.

That sounds pretty interesting...even if it was hardcover steel instead of NS steel...heck, even if it was scorings steel.

(I'm assuming you meant poppers, not poopers...cause that would change things. lol)

[Jim Norman]

I never claimed to be able to spell or type.

Poppers it is!

Jim

[Jasonub]

i had a match with no shot poppers. it ws a short course and 9 rounds. whin i shot it, one of the no shoot poppers fell. there was a hit on it. i complained said that i did not shoot the no shoot popper but it fell.

the ro said ok we reshoot since when he checked his timer there was only 9 shots fired. the targets were all steel

[Harmon]

hauling a popper out that weighs 50+ pounds and then not shooting is crazy..

i like that idea about the popper covering the port with a no shoot,

if it were scoring poppers, it would be nice.

[Sterling White]

Pooper is the after-the-fact of a N/S hit!

[blackdragon]

He said POOPER, HEHEHEHE

Ivan