Missing A's on the clock

[chipdouglas]

Hi guys. I have an issue I'd like to correct before it becomes ingrained into my conscience mind and becomes bad habit.

During accuracy live fire training I do ok. I can hit my target in 2-3 inch groups at rest in groups of 5. My problem develops under time. After the beep. Or even with no timer but when I'm self timing I'm missing A's. I'm a left handed shooter and I'm missing low and to the right consistently. Ill post a picture on one of my targets and show the group. This was shot in draw fire two stop reset draw fire two. As you can see a nice group but all low and right.

Remember I'm a lefty. .

Edited April 10, 2013 by chipdouglas

[chipdouglas]

Sorry my phone pic upload is crooked. I think the example is still clear

Edited April 10, 2013 by chipdouglas

[Mark R]

Right handed hitting low and left indicates jerking the trigger. I would guess left handed with low and right, you might me jerking the trigger or squeezing your strong hand too much pulling your shots off low and right

Make a loose fist with your strong hand, then squeeze fast and watch your hand.Your first finger knuckle will move right.

[bikerburgess]

When you say draw and fire 2 are you aiming for both shots? it is easy to get in the habit of aiming the first shot then just pulling the trigger again for the second shot, you need to see the sights for both shots.

Mike

[old506]

Typical of a trigger problem. I would start there first. You should be able to see it in your sights if you are looking at them? You need to be able to jerk the trigger at high speed without disturbing the sights. You don't want your trigger finger to move the sights.

Try it in Dry Fire first, see if you can see what is happening.

[chipdouglas]

When you say draw and fire 2 are you aiming for both shots? it is easy to get in the habit of aiming the first shot then just pulling the trigger again for the second shot, you need to see the sights for both shots.

Mike

No I see the sights on both shots. I'm making sure of this. It makes for longer splits but its necessary. I can call shots to the point where if I'm outer c or d's I can tell at the lift of the front sight I'm left or right or low. But I cannot call shots n say paste a target where they hit like tommassi does in that you tube video he has for calling shots.

So I don't think shot calling is the issue. As the pic shows all the shots are in the same area not all over.

Mark I see your point with the trigger finger pull example since my shots are right I would think if its my trigger finger it's gotta be a trigger finger push or the weak hand grip you spoke of. I will have to try at the next live fire session to change my grip and see the results. Good example btw. Thanks. I'm new to this and the biggest room in the world is the room for improvement. Everything helps

I posted some dry fire videos in the training video section I don't think I can see the exact poi when I pull the trigger there either honestly..... I will slow it down a bit and see if I can see movement in the sights and focus less on speed

[GuildSF4]

Dryfire practice pointing at a white wall (uniform color wall) not aiming at a specific point, just watching the sights. (Rapid fire also, continue this practice until the sights don't move, periodicly refresh after you learn to do it..)

[Chris iliff]

When you say draw and fire 2 are you aiming for both shots? it is easy to get in the habit of aiming the first shot then just pulling the trigger again for the second shot, you need to see the sights for both shots.

Mike

No I see the sights on both shots. I'm making sure of this. It makes for longer splits but its necessary. I can call shots to the point where if I'm outer c or d's I can tell at the lift of the front sight I'm left or right or low. But I cannot call shots n say paste a target where they hit like tommassi does in that you tube video he has for calling shots.

So I don't think shot calling is the issue.

I think you have both problems. I think you are muscling the trigger and your shot calling at speed needs a little bit of refinement.

If it was good enough, you would see those low and right hits, so there is more to be learned shot calling.

This is good. You are well on your way.

I know of no drill better than the Bill drill to help you on both of these, and at the same time. 7 yards, 6 shots into the A zone, from surrender. I guess the start position doesn't really matter, but it is the original.

Points:

1. the six shots are done as fast as you can pull the trigger and call the shots. If you have hits outside the A zone, the drill doesn't count. If they are all in the A zone it does.

2. Watch your sights the entire time, pay attention to your face, especially the muscles around your eyes, eliminate all tension in these areas.

3. Pull the trigger straight back.

This is a good drill for what you describe, another, is just shooting in the berm. 6 shots in the berm as fast as you can pull the trigger while just observing the sights. No aiming.

I kinda like the Bill drill better, especially since it requires aiming and that is something you are working on. So with the Bill drill you are kinda killing two birds, so to speak. Unless you want to really isolate the problem with just the berm shooting first, to know your eyes are seeing it all, I'd do the bill drill. Remember, the berm drill is close, like no distance involved at all. Spitting distance, you are just pulling the trigger as fast as you can and watching the sights.

As a marker, almost all M and GM's can get well below 2 seconds on a Bill Drill. One nice neat group, centered in the A, about baseball size.

Hope this helps you.

[chipdouglas]

Wow Chris. That was well put. I think your right.

During dry fire with a loose grip or uncomfortable bad grip the sights move down and to the right. Although I can dry fire fast not making them move.

I think I'm afraid of the gun (bang)??. And I know there is tension in my face. I'm left handed right eye dominant. So I squint my right eye to make sure I'm focusing with it for the first shot. Then open both till mag change. I think with more practice ill be more confident I'm raising gun to the correct eye

Guess its time to get to work. Thanks for more great advise.

[Chris iliff]

Well thanks for the kind words. I'm here to help, PM me anytime and I'll always help if I can. I learned all this stuff right here on the forum. It's a good resource.

Funny, I'm right hand left eye dominant! Hey don't be worried about the bang. Everyone flinches once in awhile. The berm drill is good for breaking that, but remember, most shooters revisit it on and off to keep the flinch at bay. So,.... don't get discouraged if the flinch creeps back after you think you beat it. Just do the drill some more. Easy Peasy!! Double plugging helps too.

Again, thanks, and good shooting!!

Edited April 11, 2013 by Chris iliff

[Fitzghan]

Alot of great tips. Might I recommend a version of the ball and dummy drill if you have a training partner? Basically face down range and have your partner load your firearm (muzzle safely down range obviously) but with his back to you so you cannot see. Have him place the gun in your holster and then draw and shoot 2 on the timer. Your partner/RO should alternate between loading live rounds and none at all at random intervals. This will show you for certain whether or not your are flinching. If you think the firearm is loaded you draw and fire with a click and your sights do not move and the muzzle does not dip then you are good to go. If your muzzle dips drastically and/or your sights move erratically then you get that "AHAAA" moment. Rinse repeat until you are no longer flinching.

I used this drill with great effect for 25yd group shooting slow fire but imagine it would work in this case as well. Another great tip is for every time you draw and flinch on a dry run...you draw and practice 5 perfect dryfire repititions. Then begin the cycle over again. Each flinch cost you 5 perfect dry fire presses and now you are actively learning and correcting the problem.

Hope that will help.

[38supPat]

Pat attention to how you pull the trigger. We pull differently when shooting at speed vs. off a rest, you might be doing a slow steady squeeze of the bench or when shooting groups but just start banging away at it when live firing. When I'm teaching groups of new shooters I really pay attention to what they are doing when pulling the trigger and a common thing is in dry fire they will have a nice smooth trigger pull and then when we go live on the range they just start whacking the trigger with wild abandon.