gingerbreadman Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Well this is just preliminary here but i have a winchester,browning and a remington, i like my remington the best and that is my soul reson so far for choosing this rifle...... heres a link to the gun http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/700vls.htm its in my price range at $879.99 canadian....... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Good rifle, what caliber did yu settle on? I just picked up a Classic in 221 Fireball and the trigger pull must have been 9 lbs. shoots pretty well now that the trigger was adjusted to 1.5 lbs. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillL223 Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 I have seen an friend of mine shoot a cloverleaf @ 300 yds with his handloads in .308. He said he was lucky, I said he was also good. Scope was a Leupold VX2 4.5 x 14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkgsmith Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Almost all of our sniper rifles are built on 700 actions, they are simple, cheap, and last for years. My rifle is over 30 years old (with a new brl.)and if your good at reading wind and mirage you can shoot soda can sized targets at 500 yards all day long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DblTap Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 I just bought a 700 VLS in 223 Rem. After adjusting the trigger, free floating the barrel and glass bedding it is shooting pretty well. I've seen several sub 1/2 MOA groups so far and really haven't shot it much yet. It's wearing a Bushnell Elite 4200 6x24 (B&L) in Leupold rings/base. It's a great looking rig but if I could change anything about it's specs I like to see the 223 offered with a 1x9 barrel in place of the current 1x12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 DblTap That is why Hart, Kreiger, Wiseman, et al are in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted February 16, 2003 Author Share Posted February 16, 2003 so its a GO????? you all seem to like this gun and i like the stock over any of the other guns iv looked at, i havent yet accually held one but remington has a 3d view on there website and i have a 700 lss so im betting itl be close to that..... I scene the twist on the barrel, is that gonna make a big deal?????? -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DblTap Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Quote: from tightloop on 8:50 am on Feb. 15, 2003 DblTap That is why Hart, Kreiger, Wiseman, et al are in business. True, but many factory rifles are now offered with 1x9 barrels out of the box. I bought a Remington because I like them enough to overide this concern. BTW, I tried 55 grain Nosler Ballstic Tips over 26 grains of H335 today. The wind was howling but I think this may be a 1/2 MOA load. Muzzle velocity is 3325 FPS. I'll be trying it again under better conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 The .223 is not a big game cartridge, so why do you need a 1/9 twist to stabalize the heavy for caliber .22 bullets of from 60 grains up? It doesn't take a 70 grain .223 bullet to kill crows or prairie dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DblTap Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Quote: from tightloop on 6:42 am on Feb. 16, 2003 The .223 is not a big game cartridge, so why do you need a 1/9 twist to stabalize the heavy for caliber .22 bullets of from 60 grains up? It doesn't take a 70 grain .223 bullet to kill crows or prairie dogs. In a word... WIND. The typical 69 grain match bullet at 3000 FPS has almost identical drop numbers to the standard 55 grain loads but wind drifts approx 1/2 as much. This translates into greater hit percentages in the field. Drop I can correct for, the wind is always a wildcard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 DblTap you are missing the point completely, if you want to shoot 70 gr stuff, get a 243. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted February 17, 2003 Author Share Posted February 17, 2003 tightloop or anyone else can you explain to me how twist in a barrel affects different weight of bullets....... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 The longer the bullet, the faster it must be spun to stabilize it. Most twists are selected to stabilize the commonly available bullet lengths (weights), such as 1:10" for .30. The variety of twists in the 223 comes from the military and the boat tail bullets (they add length). For many years the standard twist for centerfire .22's was 1:14". Thus, the faster the twist rate, the longer (heavier) bullets you can shoot. Since few are shooting bullets long enough to need the fast twists, other than military surplus, the trend to fast twist barrels for varmint guns is actually limiting thier use for varmints since many of the varmint bullets cannot withstand the fast rpm's that result. The military 55gr BT resulted in the 1:12" commonly seen in 223's. The longer and heavier bullets subsequently adopted by the military has continued to drive the twist rate for the 223 faster. Still, that is what is currently available. It only means that bullet selection may be somewhat limited, leaning to the heavier end. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DblTap Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Quote: from tightloop on 6:43 pm on Feb. 16, 2003 DblTap you are missing the point completely, if you want to shoot 70 gr stuff, get a 243. I'd say you're missing the point. I'm sitting on a truckload of .223 components and like it's lack of recoil (so hit can be seen thru a 24x scope) and economy. If I'd have wanted a .243 that's what I'd have bought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted February 17, 2003 Author Share Posted February 17, 2003 so is a 1 in 10 a faster twist than a 1 in 12 ????? how does the scale work??? and is the barrel on the vls in .223 sutable for my close quarters gopher and pop can shooting plans??? -gbm- (Edited by gingerbreadman at 1:18 pm on Feb. 17, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Yes, 1:10" is faster than 1:12". It is describing one revolution of the bullet in 10" or 12", going through the barrel. This sets the rpm for the bullet once it exits the barrel. The VLS is generally a very good gun. Mine is a 1:12" (to my knowledge) and the faster twists are a recent change in deference to the heavier. longer bullets more commonly avaialble. I'm certain the gun will do well enough, but you may find some bullet restrictions with respect to the lighter bullets and the rpm's. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 DblTap The point I was trying to make is that the heavy for caliber .22 slugs were developed for the military, not for potting varmints. The .223 was developed as a sporting round for shooting the lighter weight slugs, up to 55 gr initially, and when you try to force the small case to push the 70 grain slugs to meaningful velocity, you are better off with a 6mm shooting the 70 grain stuff. I understand sectional density and the effect wind has on light weight projectiles, but when you enter the extremes of any caliber, either top or bottom, most of the time, you are better served by going up in caliber or down to handle the projectile weight you want to shoot. Example: You can get .22 bullets from about 40 grains to about 70 grains. the smaller cased centerfire .22 calibers are better off with a projectile weight of from 50 to 55 grains so it can be driven at a high speed to help flatten trajectory without hold over. Most of the heavy slugs for .22 which require a fast twist to stabalize them are FMJ stuff and have no sporting purpose anyway, other than to shoot targets. If that is your goal, great. FMJ bullets have few applications for real hunting or varmint shooting. I too like the lack of recoil and ease of financial strain when loading smaller calibers, and have a tack driver of a .22 PPC, a great .222, and a new .221 Fireball, so I understand the fun. However, none of these cases, or the .223 case is at it's best shooting 70 grain bullets. Perhaps a case can be made for the heavy slugs in military applications, but I have not fired a shot in anger since 1968 and that was a .308. Not trying to aggravate you, just my .02 cents worth on small cases and heavy bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DblTap Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 No aggravation. You do realize there are quite a few heavy varmint .224 cal bullets available from the custom makers don't you? That's what I really had in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Sure, you can get custom bullet makers to make you almost anything you want in any caliber; but, I think the 223 as a varmint cartridge is at its best with 55 gr bullets at about 3300 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 The heavy .223 projectiles available are typically Hollow Point Boat Tail (HPBT) for aerodynamic reasons, and have the jacketing wrapped from the rear to get a smooth airflow. Not a real hunting hollow point, but a Hollow Point nonetheless. Yes they do expand, just not explosively like the 55's do. This is mostly due to the kinetic/velocity differences. The 77@ 3300 fps would expand/explode almost as well as your 55er, you just can't actually push it that fast. The Sierra 77, and 80 grainers will also buck wind with the best of the 6's, 7's, and .308's. A Sierra Matchking HPBT 77 grain projectile @ 2800 to 2850 fps will work really well at the terminal end of this situation, buck wind like a bronco, and the pressure is no worse than a 55 doing 3300, so case life is fine here. Berger, JLK, Sierra, and Hornady all make 68, 69, 70, 75, 77, 78, and 80 grain .223 bullets (all HPBT, not FMJ, or whatever you want from the custom makers). The sectional density of a long, heavy 75-80 grain .223 is as good as almost all of the bigger bullets, and only a select few of them have even the slightest edge on the real heavy .223's in anything except Power Factor. BTW, 62, 69, and 70 grainers are not really heavies, they should be actually called intermediate. 1:7, or 1:8 barrels are of course required for these babies. I have one of each, and they both shoot 55's real well to boot, but this is not always the case. 1:8 is probably better for this reason, but will not get the most out of the 80's like a 1:7 will. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Your last sentence in the first paragraph is my point exactly. You cannot drive heavy bullets to optimum velocity in that small case, and since you admit that those "intermediate" and heavy bullets are not really hunting bullets; I restate my case. If you want to shoot 70 to 85 grain bullets at varmints, get a 6mm or a good 25 caliber. I have shot a good number of Sierra Match King bullets in several calibers, and in no way are they to be construed as a hunting bullet. They are target bullets which have a slight hollow point in the nose when they draw the bullet cup. What is being suggested here is the same problem which is inherent with shooting heavy bullets, over 180 grain, in the WSM and trying to get them to the same velocity as you can in a 300 Weatherby or a 300 Ultra. You are fighting the laws of physics, and Newton knows best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 "Your last sentence in the first paragraph is my point exactly. You cannot drive heavy bullets to optimum velocity" ------------------------------------- Optimum, is in the eye of the beholder. 2800 plus gets all the BC you need to keep up with the wind. I understand that they are not hunting bullets, but if you desire explosive action in the terminal part of the equation, then you can order a 75 gr .223 softpoint from JLK, and eat the cake too. In a bolter with a long barrel, 3000 fps, plus is a reasonable velocity for a 75/77 in .223. In an AR type rifle, 2800-2900 would be the max. I think the main point here (from the start) was that heavy .223's do not require as much worry about wind variances at 2-400 yards, whereas the 52, and 55gr .223's will not work anywhere as well past 200 yds in a strong, variable wind. You might as well not shoot 55's at all if the .243 will give the terminal response you desire with heavies, and buck wind to boot. The point is, if ya gonna varmint with a .223, you can shoot heavies out to 3-400 yards, and still have sub-moa accuracy. Tightloop, I didn't mean to be confrontational here at all. It was .223 that was the issue here initially, so that is where my head was at concerning the possibilities inherent in this cartridge choice. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 George No problem. that is why there is chocolate and vanilla!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 As Homer Simpson would say. MMMMMM, Chocolate, AND Vanilla ;~) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-44978 Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Gotone and luvit. Sent it to JP and did the trigger comp job done and now it feels like a 20 guage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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