Precision40 Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Can anyone quote me the reference in the LGB as to where it states that you are REQUIRED to load subsequent magazines to max capacity per divison after you make the first reload? The LGB says that the you MUST begin any Vickers stage loaded to the max per division, but says' nothing about other mags. My theory is that if you have a stage where there are 2 mandatory reloads, you can load your mags to where you could drop the mag and reload from slide-lock. This isn't the real intent and might possibly fall under the FTDR, but that aside, I'm looking for a reference to where say's you CAN'T Any suggestions? No debates...just a rulebook quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 CDP is the only division that would require 2 mag reloads in a maxed out string(18 rounds) as far as I know. To answer your question , I would refer to rule 2. 2. Any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment, or technique, will incur a twenty (20) second penalty (Vickers Count Stage) or a two hundred (200) point penalty (PAR Time Stage); this is the "FAILURE TO DO RIGHT RULE". If the shooter is doing this just for the competitive advantage -I think this and perhaps rule 3 would apply. but that's just me - I'm sure others will have a counter opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 this may sound offensive but i don't mean it to be. This just sounds like a way to make up for a lack of being a gamer ;-) how many rounds do you plan to download... 2. or 3? or 8. 1 round you might not get caught. 2 rounds you might. 3 or more people will say WHAT THE?!! dependant upon the amount of advantage you will have, think about how much time you COULD gain. now look at putting an extra shot on another target. ... this requires much more skill because you have to drop either the first or the second point .. 3 -0's might look fishy thats an FTDR. another thing i've done is tripple tap an array .. this comes out shooting 9 on arrays of 3 leaving you 2 to empty your gun at 11 and between targets. my final reccomendation as a SSP/ESP master, SO, RO and stand up guy would be..... "maintain the spirit of the game" you can get b y with a LOT of things if the SO is a marksman but remember masters KNOW most of the tricks and we will catch them more often than not. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 I would agree with Mark's quote of Rule #3. Also as a note, at major matches the shooter must declare their magazine capacity for the competition. This information is provided on the scoresheet at each stage so the SO's can verify the shooter is loading consistently from magazine to magazine and stage to stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 seems kinda wierd, its a game, but your not supposed to play it.. i understand they want to keep it as real as possible, but actual gunfights are freestyle. there are no rules, and you wanted to, you could start out with only 6 rounds on your pistol, but nobody would want to do that.. then again, i have a old glock 17, two seventeen round mags, I could in theory shoot an entire defensive pistol stage without reloading, but that would be unfair to the 1911 guys. my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Oh, well, I'll step in it. Yep, as Burkett says, add a clip board and a stop watch, and it becomes a game. We do that because we like to compete. The other reason it is a game is that we insist on safety. With real bullets (not sims or airsoft or paint) you can't have safety - and realism. For example, I carry crossdraw for a number of reasons (can you get your gun out with your weak hand if it is holstered on your strong side hip?). From what I can tell, gun fights these days rarely include draws as part of the fight these days (did they ever really except in the movies?), so the extra 1/4 - 1/2 second the xdraw adds won't make any difference. Being able to get to the gun with either hand might. The gun coming from somewhere the bad guy doesn't expect may also give you the added edge. However, I agree with the saftey requirement that we don't point hot muzzles up range, so it trumps my desire to "keep it real". The point of the game is to practice the skills used in a fight, and to rate/compare your performance on those skills, not to try and see who would win the fight. It is practice, not simulation. The only way we can "score" the game is to level the playing field. So, we go for least common denominator (10 round mags). We require that we compete with a gun in the condition in which would be carried (full +1). We compare results of shooters with similar skill and like equipment (division and classification) BTW, in terms of being fair to the 1911 (particularly 45) guys IDPA should really institute a major/minor scoring system. 9mms simply don't take people down like a 45 will. But wait, IDPA doesn't compare the score of a 1911/45 to a Glock/9mm! In real life, when most civilian defensive gun fights are 5 rounds or less, that 17 rounder just doesn't figure in - unless your strategy is to spray and pray. But now we're back to controlling that impulse under stress, which is why we add the clock and the clipboard to generate a little stress and watch your performance go to hell. IPSC/USPSA is, of course, the more gamey of the 2. I shoot them both and like them both - different mindset, different approach - that's cool with me. I really like 3 gun. If you only want to game, shoot IPSC. If you want true gunfights, well, be a cop in DC or go to Iraq. If you want to sharpen your defensive skill, shoot IDPA, and accept the rules. Precision40: Check page 41 of the LGB. It is part of the FAQ: ON STAGES REQUIRING A TACTICAL OR SLIDE LOCK LOAD, CAN I DUMP ROUNDS DOWN RANGE SO I WILL BE ABLE TO RELOAD BY A FASTER METHOD/MORE CONVENIENT LOCATION? YES, however you will receive a “Failure to do right” penalty of 20 seconds for the stage for not negotiating the course in the spirit of the contest. Geek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 good call, i am at heart, a gamer, i want to win. I have no desire to ever shoot a person. doesnt mean i wouldnt if i had to, but different situation. I love to shoot, i love competition. as with the 45/9mm comparo, i do think idpa should give a power factor like uspsa, but this is last on my list of things that idpa could do to make me happy. with my 9mm at seven yards(normal combat distance) i can draw my glock and fire one head shot in about .7 seconds.... i do just as well with my 45.. its all a game, depends on what rules you want to play by.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 its all a game, depends on what rules you want to play by.... Absolutely and I have yet to see anyone with a gun to their head at ANY shooting competition I have been too. If you dont like the basic rules of the game, dont play. I shoot everything I can afford the time and money for and I like it all. I like some more than others and they generally see me way more at those events than at the ones that I just dont like. Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 First. all i can say is .7 to head shot at 7 yds... holy crap thats quick. you speak of actual gunfights quite often, are you experienced in gun fights or the analasys of statistics? would you try to play basketball by football rules. a similar assumption could be made you wanting to play IDPA by USPSA rules. just my 1.37 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 First. all i can say is .7 to head shot at 7 yds... holy crap thats quick. Aint it though, No doubt its on demand too. would you try to play basketball by football rules. a similar assumption could be made you wanting to play IDPA by USPSA rules. AMEN Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRD Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 i can draw my glock and fire one head shot in about .7 seconds.... i do just as well with my 45.. Is this from concealment? That would be a smoking draw with an open gun... - Gabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 seems kinda wierd, its a game, but your not supposed to play it..i understand they want to keep it as real as possible, but actual gunfights are freestyle. there are no rules, and you wanted to, you could start out with only 6 rounds on your pistol, but nobody would want to do that.. then again, i have a old glock 17, two seventeen round mags, I could in theory shoot an entire defensive pistol stage without reloading, but that would be unfair to the 1911 guys. my 2 cents IDPA is a game - that part isn't lost on this crowd. You can play it by the rules or not . If you choose not to - that is your choice , just don't whine about the PE's incurred. my 2 cents MP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I think the original question's been answered. If anyone wants to continue this, feel free to PM me. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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