The IPSC Box

[spook]

A friend of mine was put back to Open division after his standard gun did not fit the box according to the RO. The slide of his Glock35 had to be moved back juuust a millimeter to fit. The gun was still in battery and could be fired if loaded.

The box rule states that a Standard gun should fit the box in ready condition (according to 8.1 that is). So I checked 8.1.2.1 (which is the category a Glock would be in in Standard I think) and it says: Camber loaded, hammer cocked, safety on, is the ready condition.

IMO, the gun still fitted, even if the slide was moved back just a millimeter, because it still was loaded (obviously the chambr was not because of safety), and it still was cocked and had a mag inserted.

Opinions?

[Skywalker]

Spook,

I guess since the gun didn't drop freely in the box, moving the competitor to open div. was the only logical consequence.

Note that the IPSC box already sports +1mm tolerance on all dimensions, to provide some room for adjustment.

Moreover, if you retract the slide 1mm, technically speaking the gun is no more in battery even if it's capable of firing, but this has nothing to do with the gun ready condition: the gun is not in it's ready condition since it is an artificial position, not it's normal "loaded rest" one.

[Garfield]

Spook,

I'm sorry for your friend (I guess it's a mutual friend ?) but I think Sky is right.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

I'm very surprised that the G35 didn't fit the box. The G35 was specifically designed by Glock to fit the IPSC box, and my experience is that the gun slips inside quite easily. Was the gun fitted with something "extra" such as unusually high sights, excessive grip tape on the backstrap or perhaps a magazine well?

Did the competitor request that the internal measurements of the box be checked? While the rulebook is silent on this issue, I expect a reasonable RM would be willing to assist, and I know I certainly would. In fact, I always carry a ruler in my RO bag for this and magazine measuring purposes.

In any case, if the gun could fit the box with slight "jamming", I would accept it for Standard Division.

[A33435]

Hi Arvid, good to see you survived the Mosquito Match

It wasn't one of my G35's but, my opinion too is that Sky is right.

However i would like to say that the condition how this G35 could fit the box

is exact the condition how my G35 would be loaded and holstered when i stil used a Ghost holster. (now i am using the CR-speed holster)

When i used the Ghostholster and " locked" the gun, the detention ball pressed the triggerguard, hence the slide, a little bit down.

But it's still not the normal situation the way you would shoot the gun.

Greetings

Adrie

[A33435]

Vince,

The standard G34 and G35 does fit the box indeed, they are the "IPSC" guns.

This gun had a magwell and the magazines were extended.

Greetings

Adrie

[Skywalker]

I'm very surprised that the G35 didn't fit the box. The G35 was specifically designed by Glock to fit the IPSC box, and my experience is that the gun slips inside quite easily. Was the gun fitted with something "extra" such as unusually high sights, excessive grip tape on the backstrap or perhaps a magazine well?

That was my first initial feeling too.

In any case, if the gun could fit the box with slight "jamming", I would accept it for Standard Division.

Vince,

without starting a new debate on how far can we interpret the rules, I'd like to learn how to discern a "minor jamming" (acceptable by the rules) from a "major" one (unacceptable).

My take was that pushing the mag up, or pushing the rear (adjustable) sight leaf down was acceptable, because these actions were not affecting the gun ready condition, but I supposed that retracting the slide (even for a 1mm travel) was not to be considered as "acceptable".

Where am I wrong?

I ask this because once I had a teammate shooting modified div. that, before anyone came out with "slicing" the muzzle of barrels and slides, was thinking of putting his gun canted inside the box, slightly retracting the slide, and we all discouraged him because of the feeling the gun was not in its ready condition.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Adrie,

Ahhhh-so ........... my suspicions are confirmed.

Still, as I said earlier, if the gun can fit the box with slight "jamming" (i.e. no need to use a sledge-hammer), then I would allow it in Standard Division. At WSXIII in South Africa, there were a few guns which needed "encouragement" to fit the box

[GvU]

Sky,

The tolerance is for the box. Its internal dimensions are described and the box is either within or outside these dimensions. If the dimensions are correct then that box is THE box. All pistols must fit THAT box, if not continu in OPEN.

This means you better take a minimum dimension box for setting up your (standard/modified) gun! At the match the probability is that the box is bigger. If your gun doesn't fit just ask for measurement of the internal dimensions! If the dimensions are within the criteria no gun can be rejected for standard (provided other criteria are met).

DVC, John

[Vince Pinto]

Sky,

Run for the hills .............. we're surrounded by Flying Dutchmen

[Vince Pinto]

Sky,

I hope my earlier reply above answers your question, however the bottom line is that we must be reasonable. Some guns will push the limits of the internal dimensions of the box so, assuming that the box is built with maximum tolerances (i.e. +1mm), then we should make a reasonable effort to get the gun inside.

Remember the box is not as scientific as the chrono, which has absolute measurements, where a variance of 0.001 means the difference between Major/Minor or Minor/No Score.

[Skywalker]

Sky,

Run for the hills .............. we're surrounded by Flying Dutchmen

...and they shoot damn well too...

[Garfield]

then we should make a reasonable effort to get the gun inside.

Fully agreed, but I find "reasonable" ending with having to move the slide to get a gun in.

As Adrie said (and I already suspected) the gun was fitted with a Magwell.

Competitor knows the box size and knows that putting on Magwells pushes the gun size to the box limits.

He probably could have filed some material off the back of the Magwell easily.

Remember the box is not as scientific as the chrono.

Everything has tolerances.

That is why the box is constructed in such a way that the competitor already has some leeway with respect to the box fitting.

So, if even with the +1mm tolerances mentioned by you the gun cannot be fitted in the box, I would move the competitor to Open if the gun doesn't fit.

[Yoda]

Hi guys,

allow me to add a few words. I happen to know the RM very, very, VERY well and he is a very reasonable guy . It happened to two competitors that match, one Dutch shooter and a Belgian shooter. Both guns happened to be Glocks, but I do not recall which models. The Dutch guy had a large magwell and extended magazines, the Belgian had just extended magazines.

I did check the size of the boxes (we had two boxes available) and both were correct. BTW, the slide of the Belgian had to move back more than just one mm.

Too bad for both of them. Unfortunately they did also not compy with the conditions for Production Division, because that would have been a reasonable alternative.

[spook]

In any case, if the gun could fit the box with slight "jamming", I would accept it for Standard Division.

Vince, exactly. What I thought was: "As long as the rule on this is not clear, I'd give the shooter the benefit of the doubt". An out of battery gun, not ready to fire obviously does not comply.

Fully agreed, but I find "reasonable" ending with having to move the slide to get a gun in.

Garfield, very nice, so if your my RO, your going to move me to open, because you find that the gun is unreasonably large? No offense, but I'd like facts and rules from an RO, not opinions. And if you were going to give me an opinion, please put some aguments there to back it up.

Anywho, the shooter took some material off the back of the magwell and it now fits the box even better

[mcoliver]

Forgive my ignorant question, but I'm trying to picture the glock inside the box here.

The slide is shorter compared to the barrel in front and the grip tang at the rear, right?

So to be able to "move the slide" to fit the gun in the box, either:

1. the sights are hittting something at the top and has to move laterally to fit, or

2. the barrel is longer, in which case it has to move back a bit thereby moving the slide as an effect?

[Dalmas]

I'm having my gun rebuilt and tuned (in holland by the way) and although i don't agree about the legalaty of putting thumbrests on Standard guns mine will be fitted with one once it returns (it helps and is legal = i'll use it) are there any restrictions on how big (wide) the thumbrest can be or does it only have to fit the box?

I have to compress my rear sight to get my gun into the box, anybody have a problem with that?

[Skywalker]

are there any restrictions on how big (wide) the thumbrest can be or  does it only have to fit the box?

Dalmas,

As long as the gun with thumbrest installed fits the box in all three dimensions (watch out for the 45mm depth closely), it is legal.

I have to compress my rear sight to get my gun into the box, anybody have a problem with that?

I think we can all agree that this falls into the "minor jamming" Vince referred to, thus still legal.

mcoliver,

the first 5 or 6mm of slide travel will move the barrel too. Remember that for a locked breech locking system the first part of slide travel (slide and barrel jointly) is used to lower the pressure, thus the gun statys locked; then, after pressures have been lowered (usually 5/6mm of travel) the barrel unlocks from the slide and tilts/rotates to let the slide end its rearward movement.

For this reason, retracting the slide for 1mm will effectively shorten the gun OAL.

As Spook pointed out, the gun was fitted with a magwell, and this increased the gun OAL at its back. Retracting the slide (for the above reason) allowed the gun to gain that hair that allowed it to fit the box.

[mcoliver]

mcoliver,

the first 5 or 6mm of slide travel will move the barrel too. Remember that for a locked breech locking system the first part of slide travel (slide and barrel jointly) is used to lower the pressure, thus the gun statys locked; then, after pressures have been lowered (usually 5/6mm of travel) the barrel unlocks from the slide and tilts/rotates to let the slide end its rearward movement.

For this reason, retracting the slide for 1mm will effectively shorten the gun OAL.

As Spook pointed out, the gun was fitted with a magwell, and this increased the gun OAL at its back. Retracting the slide (for the above reason) allowed the gun to gain that hair that allowed it to fit the box.

Oh, I see, I failed to read the fitted with magwell portion.

Thanks Sky. Thanks also for the little lesson in slide cycling dynamics.

[Skywalker]

Unfortunately they did also not compy with the conditions for Production Division, because that would have been a reasonable alternative.

Master Yoda,

I just re-read your post, and I have to say I don't agree with the above quoted part.

I mean, if the gun/equipment you bring to a match doesn't comply with Divisional Requirements, you're moved to open, not to the nearest suitable division, as per 6.2.5.1.

[Dalmas]

Dalmas,

As long as the gun with thumbrest installed fits the box in all three dimensions (watch out for the 45mm depth closely), it is legal.

My gun is excactly 45mm wide... due to my extremely large but awesome grip. seen top and far right in this pic DALMAS

[Skywalker]

if your my RO, your going to move me to open, because you find that the gun is unreasonably large? No offense, but I'd like facts and rules from an RO, not opinions. And if you were going to give me an opinion, please put some aguments there to back it up.

Spook,

the fact is: your gun doesn't fit the box? The dark side of IPSC shooting will heartily accept you...

If your gun in its ready condition doesn't slide into the box as it is, you're not complying with the divisional requirements, and rule 6.2.5.1 clearly states what's going to happen next.

Then, you might find more tolerant or helpful ROs that will try to help you fitting your gun to the box (and we could start an entire debate here on why this kind of help should be permitted, while telling the competitor he screwed up the LAMR command not chambering a round or forgetting to put a fresh mag in after topping off shouldn't...), or more strict ones that won't do that, but the final consideration is you're not going to be moved to open on the the RO's opinion but on facts; maybe the reverse can happen: you're not going to be moved to open div. because of the RO's freedom of evaluation.

[GvU]

Vince,

I'm puzzled!

I hope my earlier reply above answers your question, however the bottom line is that we must be reasonable. Some guns will push the limits of the internal dimensions of the box so, assuming that the box is built with maximum tolerances (i.e. +1mm), then we should make a reasonable effort to get the gun inside.

Remember the box is not as scientific as the chrono, which has absolute measurements, where a variance of 0.001 means the difference between Major/Minor or Minor/No Score.

I think it's the same.

The lack of "proper" (official) calibration has been replaced with ammo meeting the power floor (minor) and a day tot day check in variations of ammo. It has been sufficiently asked, published, explained were the chrono tot chrono variations come from and the ways to deal with this, among others how to make ammo to meet major (and minor).

The chrono has a certain tolerance. So has the box (which is definedly easier to measure). The only thing lacking is a proper measuring device (usually calipers are not readily on hand!).

Still I do agree on the reasonable force statement. (I most probably need that when my 19 round magazine is up for measurement with a minimum dimensions box , I guess I'll have to take calipers along for future matches, as well as a file ).

I do not agree measuring the box and if it is minimum dimensions look at how much the gun is oversized. If the box meets the dimensional criteria, then that is the measuring device to use. Oversize gun means "upgrade" to OPEN.

The way to go for the competitor in case of uncertainty is measure before the match (you can ask) and then correct if to big or if not possible retract the "offending" equipment.

Actually the way to go for the bigger matches is a pre-check as on the WS in SA.

DVC, John

[Skywalker]

The way to go for the competitor in case of uncertainty is measure before the match (you can ask) and then correct if to big or if not possible retract the "offending" equipment.

Bottom line (at least for me):

"Be sure of what you bring to a match!". The burden of compliance is onto you, not on anybody else!

And this should apply to almost everything you do in your life too.

[Garfield]

Garfield, very nice, so if your my RO, your going to move me to open, because you find that the gun is unreasonably large? No offense, but I'd like facts and rules from an RO, not opinions. And if you were going to give me an opinion, please put some aguments there to back it up.

Hi,

Spook, I am an RO now for a year or so and the more I work as an RO, and the more I work on large international matches, I learn that there always will be cases that are NOT dealt with in the rules. On the last match in Slovakia where I worked as a CRO there were several examples of this.

Having said that, in all cases the chain of decisions is always clear: RO - CRO - RM - Arbitration (if possible).

I only said that if it were me as an RO having to make the decision, I would have moved the shooter to Open. This decision is among ROs sometimes -jokingly- described as "initial ruling". The shooter could then take it up all the way to arbitration if he wanted to.

An RO sometimes just has to make a call for situations that are not 100% clear in the rules. Why do you think there is so much discussion going on about the rules here ?

And if you want simple facts and rules, how about this:

- FACT: Box size (IPSC rules appendix D2 item 16)

- FACT: Gun in prescribed condition (IPSC rules appendix D2 item 16)

- FACT: Gun in prescribed condition does not fit in box*

* I interpret the moving of the slide to get the gun to fit in the box as a deviation of the prescribed condition.

I as an RO find that a violation of IPSC rule 6.2.5.1, hence the competitor would get moved to Open by me, if I had to make the call.

But as all RO's, I'm willing to get overruled by the CRO, the RM and the Arbitration Committee if established.

Can you accept this ?