Recoil Management, Sight Tracking, Recovery-- Confused

[Sin-ster]

First off-- long time reader, first time poster. Greetings to all.

I don't really consider myself a true "beginner", but this is almost certainly a beginner question. It all revolves around a particular issue I've noticed in my live fire practice.

During slow fire, the pistol recoils and I track the sights upward. However, they do not return naturally to my original POA. Firing pairs, failure to stop drills or in competition, I never notice. But I have to physically index the gun-- it's not happening naturally.

I've never had any formal training, and (for some stupid reason) have never picked up a detailed book on competitive shooting. Instead, I have picked the brains of the successful shooters I know and searched the Interwebz for every post, discussion and video on the subject. What I've found is that I'm having trouble wrapping my head around my current situation. I hesitate to call it a problem, because frankly, I don't seem to understand a few key concepts-- which is really frustrating for someone who NEVER struggles with critical reading. (I think I might be taking tidbits from different schools of thought without even realizing the distinction, TBH.)

Specifically, here's my questions/conundrums.

1) Recoil Management

"Don't fight the gun" seems to go against this term. If you establish a proper grip and stance, and simply wait for the sights to return to their proper index point, what's to manage in the first place? Is this an active process, or simply a term used to describe the proper fundamentals that allow you to AVOID fighting the gun?

When I drop the striker/hammer on a dud primer, snap cap (cap-n-ball drill) or empty chamber (strong thumb disengages the slide catch from time to time), I definitely move the empty pistol. This is most pronounced "at speed", and almost imperceptible during slow/deliberate shooting. It does not effect my accuracy in any way, shape or form-- my flinches heel the shot high and left, trigger slaps low and left, and lazy support hand the standard "Glock push left". (Right handed shooter, BTW.) There was a time when I was hitting below POA, and I attributed it to this "fighting". I seem to have naturally worked that problem out, but only in terms of timing. It doesn't happen before the shot breaks, in other words.

Am I supposed to be doing this? As I've said, it is the way in which I return the sights to their proper alignment. Otherwise, as per my slow fire evidence, they will always be a bit off vertically.

2) Recovery

This seems a better term in light of the desire to not fight the gun. The shot breaks, the sights jump up and you naturally recover your original sight picture by way of proper technique, firm grip/wrists, etc. At the same time, I suppose it could mean a physical readjustment of the gun to get them in place.

Are these two concepts conflicting? Are they different ways of talking about the same thing? Are they supposed to be happening in unison, at all, independent of each other?

I could go on and on, but it seems best to stop here-- for the sake of brevity and clarity at the very least. Perhaps if/when the topic develops a bit more, I can get some insight into a few more (related) things. Thanks in advance to any who may reply!

[Hi-Power Jack]

When I drop the striker/hammer I move the empty pistol. It does not effect my accuracy , it is the way I return the sights to their proper alignment. Otherwise, , they will always be off vertically.

Welcome.

I misunderstand your question, but if

you "move the pistol" during trigger squeeze,

but it does not affect accuracy, I wouldn't

worry about it. Usually, I worry only about

missing the target.

Whenever I move the pistol with the squeeze, I

usually miss the target. That is a problem.

But, it sounds like you are squeezing the trigger

too hard/fast which will move the gun and make

you miss the target.

Holding a little firmer with the left hand, and

less firmly with the right hand - and prepping

the trigger in stages can help you NOT move the

gun when you squeeze the trigger - but it takes

a LOT of practice. Don't make a sudden jerk to

pull the trigger, but apply incremental pressure

as you struggle to keep the sights on target.

Hope that helps a little.

Good luck with it.

Jack

[Powder Finger]

During slow fire, the pistol recoils and I track the sights upward. However, they do not return naturally to my original POA. Firing pairs, failure to stop drills or in competition, I never notice. But I have to physically index the gun-- it's not happening naturally.

Have you ever had the gun return to alignment without concious/physical input from you?

The reason I ask is if you have then that is part of your answer to what you quoted above.

Try this: you say in slow fire "I track the sights upward", go out and put up a target (small one) before you shoot it visualize what you have seen but add to that "movie" the sight returning to where you want it to.

Now relax, clear your head, open your eyes and shoot the shot. Did the sight return now? do it again..........again.

I'll bet you will get the result you are after in a couple mags worth of ammo.

Watch out for things that can keep you from getting what you are after, moving your head, un-locking your stance/grip which causes the gun to drop at the back and would make it nearly imposible for the front sight to return.

What you are trying to do is just watch the gun run while your vision causes it to return where YOU want it to.

Once this happens consistantly you won't have a need for definitions of what it is.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Powder Finger

[Sin-ster]

I do tend to slap the trigger a bit on follow up shots, which is something I've worked at quite a bit in order to make it a rare occurrence. A smooth and steady trigger press is paramount for a Glock, as any pause after the slack has been taken up will push the shot left more often than not.

I'm definitely tweaking my grip strength and support hand placement a bit in the very near future. While I shoot thumbs forward, the left wrist isn't cammed very much at all and might relate to the problem I'm having resetting the sights. I figure I'll play around with it, starting and super aggressive and working backward to see if it makes any difference.

Thanks for the tips, Jack.

[Sin-ster]

Have you ever had the gun return to alignment without concious/physical input from you?

The reason I ask is if you have then that is part of your answer to what you quoted above.

Try this: you say in slow fire "I track the sights upward", go out and put up a target (small one) before you shoot it visualize what you have seen but add to that "movie" the sight returning to where you want it to.

Now relax, clear your head, open your eyes and shoot the shot. Did the sight return now? do it again..........again.

I'll bet you will get the result you are after in a couple mags worth of ammo.

Watch out for things that can keep you from getting what you are after, moving your head, un-locking your stance/grip which causes the gun to drop at the back and would make it nearly imposible for the front sight to return.

What you are trying to do is just watch the gun run while your vision causes it to return where YOU want it to.

Once this happens consistantly you won't have a need for definitions of what it is.

When I shoot at "full speed", the sights always return to their original position. (Not always perfect of course, but they do come back down.) It's only during slow fire when they "stick" a bit too high.

I have indeed visualized/pretended I'm going to fire a pair, but only broken the first shot instead. The sights returned to their original position, but it seemed a bit slow and deliberate. In fact, at anything but wide open speeds, that's the sensation I get-- that I'm forcing them back into place, and can actually watch the front post lower as a direct result of my efforts. From time to time, this results in a low shot as I let the front post dip too far but still break the shot when I feel as if they're aligned.

However, I will continue to work on the visualization aspect. That makes a lot of sense. There's also a good chance I'm relaxing too early and unlocking the stance or grip, just as you say. That makes a ton of sense, in fact.

What I gather from the gist of your post is that it's a matter of perception that differs between shooters. Some (like me) feel as if we're returning the sights to the proper position; others feel as if it happens naturally. But as long as it HAPPENS, I shouldn't sweat the how and why. That also makes sense.

I am also going to mess around with camming my support hand more. Right now, it's only angled a tiny bit downward and an adjustment could result in a more natural return of the pistol to its starting position.

[Powder Finger]

Have you ever had the gun return to alignment without concious/physical input from you?

The reason I ask is if you have then that is part of your answer to what you quoted above.

Try this: you say in slow fire "I track the sights upward", go out and put up a target (small one) before you shoot it visualize what you have seen but add to that "movie" the sight returning to where you want it to.

Now relax, clear your head, open your eyes and shoot the shot. Did the sight return now? do it again..........again.

I'll bet you will get the result you are after in a couple mags worth of ammo.

Watch out for things that can keep you from getting what you are after, moving your head, un-locking your stance/grip which causes the gun to drop at the back and would make it nearly imposible for the front sight to return.

What you are trying to do is just watch the gun run while your vision causes it to return where YOU want it to.

Once this happens consistantly you won't have a need for definitions of what it is.

When I shoot at "full speed", the sights always return to their original position. (Not always perfect of course, but they do come back down.) It's only during slow fire when they "stick" a bit too high.

I have indeed visualized/pretended I'm going to fire a pair, but only broken the first shot instead. The sights returned to their original position, but it seemed a bit slow and deliberate. In fact, at anything but wide open speeds, that's the sensation I get-- that I'm forcing them back into place, and can actually watch the front post lower as a direct result of my efforts. From time to time, this results in a low shot as I let the front post dip too far but still break the shot when I feel as if they're aligned.

However, I will continue to work on the visualization aspect. That makes a lot of sense. There's also a good chance I'm relaxing too early and unlocking the stance or grip, just as you say. That makes a ton of sense, in fact.

What I gather from the gist of your post is that it's a matter of perception that differs between shooters. Some (like me) feel as if we're returning the sights to the proper position; others feel as if it happens naturally. But as long as it HAPPENS, I shouldn't sweat the how and why. That also makes sense.

I am also going to mess around with camming my support hand more. Right now, it's only angled a tiny bit downward and an adjustment could result in a more natural return of the pistol to its starting position.

If your "slow fire" is being done for "group shooting" off of bags, then that's a different deal kind of to me.

If the central focus is to just shoot groups, many times your attention isn't really caring about sight lift amount, or return, just shooting the group. In this case I may notice lift/return but don't necessarily care about it.

Now if you are shooting groups at a 50 at speed then everything needs to becomes part of your process.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Powder Finger

[Sin-ster]

So I focused today on imagining I was firing pairs even when group shooting. A friend suggested I should never plan on firing "just one shot", even if I only pressed the trigger one time. It seemed to make a lot of difference, and while still a bit sluggish for my tastes, the sights realigned much easier and faster than normal.

I also worked extensively with more forward cant to my wrist. Even when I spaced out on visualization, it made a notable difference as well. Combined, the two showed marked improvement in my 200 round session.

I noticed something else that is almost certainly a huge contributing factor. While filming 5 shot strings at a reasonably slow speed, it became apparent that the recoil was not only lifting the gun, but driving it backwards (as it's supposed to); my elbows and shoulders were absorbing recoil as intended. HOWEVER, the muzzle never returned to its original lateral position. I was actually being moved back by the recoil, which equated to an issue with my stance.

I went more aggressive and focused in on this aspect and saw improvement all around. The first shot still put me back a bit, but the next 4 saw the muzzle return to its former position with only minor rearward deviation.

I filmed 50 shots in controlled pairs, as fast as I could shoot them while properly indexing the sights. Not only did I shoot an impressive group at 10 yards, I noticed that none of the problems existed at speed. The recoil didn't walk me back and the sights realigned perfectly each time. I'm sure it's a combination of getting the grip and stance right, coupled with the twitch muscle response to knowing a second shot was necessary.

Obviously, I'll continue to work on these aspects until it becomes second nature. Thanks for the advice and insight, Powder. I not only understand the concepts more clearly, I've got an effective way of thinking about and analyzing them.

[Powder Finger]

Great deal!

What you just described will take you as far as you want. Not what happened with the gun but the fact that you can teach yourself.

Many shooters can only go as far as what someone else shows them, but when you go past that you become truely dangerous.

Good job.

[Torogi]

This is very good you are learning this stuff early. When I started I just followed the generic advise.. shoot what you have and have fun!!

what i have learned with recoil management is about proper grip technique. It is a technique because not all the time the amount of grip applied is constant, its varies to difficulty of the shot and position. Recovery, to me is learning how your gun reacts. its anticipation.. But just like you, im still learning too!

[Hi-Power Jack]

I learned a lot last summer when I practiced my

weak hand shooting - with two hands or strong

only, I was making good hits at 15 yards.

When I switched and tried to shoot weak hand

at 10 yards, I was missing badly.

Finally realized it was the way I was squeezing

the trigger - if I consciously (very consciously)

maintained the sight picture all the while I

was squeezing the trigger - I got hits.

When I tried to power the trigger (pull the whole

trigger pull in one motion) I would miss.

That helped carry over into strong hand and even

two handed shooting - same trigger pull was

very helpful in hitting the target fast.

Someone posted a "Dot Torture" target here a

month ago - print up some of them, and then

try your shooting - that forces you to concentrate

on the proper trigger squeeze, or you will miss.

Good luck.

Jack

[Sin-ster]

Great deal!

What you just described will take you as far as you want. Not what happened with the gun but the fact that you can teach yourself.

Many shooters can only go as far as what someone else shows them, but when you go past that you become truely dangerous.

Good job.

Don't give me all the credit! You and my B-class buddy helped me wrap my mind around the issue, and gave me things to think about to make it happen.

I'm happy to say that in 400 rounds, this problem has all but disappeared. While diagnosing another random anomaly today while shooting pairs, I decided to freeze after breaking the first shot and see what my POA looked like. Whattya know, the post fell perfectly into the notch even though I KNEW I was only firing one shot. (And I fixed the secondary problem t'boot!)

Thanks for the help and the kind words. If there's one thing I know for sure about shooting, it's that confidence is at a premium. And let me say that I'm feeling pretty good right now!

[Powder Finger]

Great deal!

What you just described will take you as far as you want. Not what happened with the gun but the fact that you can teach yourself.

Many shooters can only go as far as what someone else shows them, but when you go past that you become truely dangerous.

Good job.

Don't give me all the credit! You and my B-class buddy helped me wrap my mind around the issue, and gave me things to think about to make it happen.

I'm happy to say that in 400 rounds, this problem has all but disappeared. While diagnosing another random anomaly today while shooting pairs, I decided to freeze after breaking the first shot and see what my POA looked like. Whattya know, the post fell perfectly into the notch even though I KNEW I was only firing one shot. (And I fixed the secondary problem t'boot!)

Thanks for the help and the kind words. If there's one thing I know for sure about shooting, it's that confidence is at a premium. And let me say that I'm feeling pretty good right now!

Neither your buddy or me pulled the trigger, did the work, kept observant, and paid attention. I'm pretty sure you did.

[grapemeister]

I’m very happy for you and your big break through. Although your post wasn’t intended to be just about the importance of group shooting, it sounds like you have learned a tremendous lesson from it. For the longest time I didn’t place much importance on group shooting. I would group shoot maybe 20 or 25 rounds at the beginning of every practice just to warm up, and to work on accuracy a little, and then I would get into drills and other run and gun stuff.

I’ve come to learn fairly recently, as you have, that group shooting is so important for so many different reasons. It can bring up questions, answer questions, and bring things to our attention that we may not have been aware of. Since placing more importance on it, my accuracy has improved, and my shot calling ability has improved. I’ve also, like you, learned to let the sights come back into alignment as if I were going to fire a second shot. For a long time it was a conscience and physical effort, but the more I practice, the more it becomes a natural thing. This in turn has improved the accuracy and speed of my controlled pairs, and at greater distances.

Now, at least once a week I leave the cleats, and gun belt in the truck, and I dedicate an entire practice session of 150 to 200 rounds of just standing in one spot and group shooting.

Again, I’m so happy for you, and thanks for sharing your experiences with us. It helps us all. And thanks to Powder Finger. I wish I could articulate things the way you do.

[Powder Finger]

I’m very happy for you and your big break through. Although your post wasn’t intended to be just about the importance of group shooting, it sounds like you have learned a tremendous lesson from it. For the longest time I didn’t place much importance on group shooting. I would group shoot maybe 20 or 25 rounds at the beginning of every practice just to warm up, and to work on accuracy a little, and then I would get into drills and other run and gun stuff.

I’ve come to learn fairly recently, as you have, that group shooting is so important for so many different reasons. It can bring up questions, answer questions, and bring things to our attention that we may not have been aware of. Since placing more importance on it, my accuracy has improved, and my shot calling ability has improved. I’ve also, like you, learned to let the sights come back into alignment as if I were going to fire a second shot. For a long time it was a conscience and physical effort, but the more I practice, the more it becomes a natural thing. This in turn has improved the accuracy and speed of my controlled pairs, and at greater distances.

Now, at least once a week I leave the cleats, and gun belt in the truck, and I dedicate an entire practice session of 150 to 200 rounds of just standing in one spot and group shooting.

Again, I’m so happy for you, and thanks for sharing your experiences with us. It helps us all. And thanks to Powder Finger. I wish I could articulate things the way you do.

Now that's funny, I've never been accused of being "articulate". thank you